Still not sure of what your point is.
Are you claiming that it takes actual killing before a doctrine deserves any criticism?
Are you forgetting that Muslims are very much a minority with no political influence whatsover here in Brazil?
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Nothing to do with Islam?
- Thread starter Rational Agnostic
- Start date
Are you claiming that it takes actual killing before a doctrine deserves any criticism?
Are you forgetting that Muslims are very much a minority with no political influence whatsover here in Brazil?
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Not my problem if you can't comprehend my point.
No, it means that if Muslims are killing atheists everywhere then that means Islam
will be the reason, but accusing Islam for some crimes against innocent people
here and there is really nonsense ans stupid.
Then it isn't of your own business of how other nations with majority of Muslims chose to live
as long as they don't affect your political system.
It is your privilege, but it does not help your credibility.
Nonsense. You are either refusing or failing to accept that Muslim, Islaamic-motivated oppression of non-Muslims extends far beyond actual killing, despite it being such a self-evident fact.
By setting the bar so high, you weaken your case to an impressive level of feebleness.
Then again, I just don't see that you have any true choice on the matter.
This, too, makes no sense whatsoever.
Among other reasons, because you can't in good faith offer a community where Islaam has no power to speak of as an example to evidence that it won't abuse what power it has a matter of course.
If anything, you would be proposing that Islaam should be kept vestigial and powerless so that peace can be achieved. There is certainly something to that.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
How? clarify please
What is your evidence that Islam motivates the oppression of non-Muslims?
That's meaningless.
You and some others were easily fooled by a youtuber.
Islam was in Europe as a powerful force basing in Spain, all what it did was scientific advancements,
tell by evidence if Islam was oppressing people during that period.
During the prophet era it was a war between the atheists and the believers, do you know what war means,
it doesn't mean to kill all the atheists but those who chose to fight the message of Islam.
The atheists fought the prophet to stop the message from spreading and the quran stated in clear
words as not to fight except if they started to fight and that God doesn't like the aggressors(of any side),
The uncle of the prophet was himself an atheist and was the best supporter for his nephew, it was a peaceful
message but the atheists started the war to stop the peaceful message, if we compare it our days
then it's like fighting someone by force for spreading a peaceful message.
You should investigate the truth yourself than listening and being fooled by a simple youtuber.
I believe we should stand up for genuinely liberal Muslims.
I also think the Baha’i faith makes for an interesting case of Islamic reform because interpreting the return of Jesus as a modifier of the law (which is what the Quran asserts the original Jesus was) room is provided for innovation where necessary.
In this way innovations such as freedom of speech can be incorporated into the Abrahamic tradition which is something not all reformers of Islam were able to achieve.
I also think the Baha’i faith makes for an interesting case of Islamic reform because interpreting the return of Jesus as a modifier of the law (which is what the Quran asserts the original Jesus was) room is provided for innovation where necessary.
In this way innovations such as freedom of speech can be incorporated into the Abrahamic tradition which is something not all reformers of Islam were able to achieve.
Sakeenah
Well-Known Member
Before I add my two cents on reform in Islam, I just want to say that I'm an Orthodox Muslim so my views are more conservative than that of the average Muslim.
I think that contemporary discourse has worked to establish a stereotypical image of the religiously committed Muslim, one that is ignorant of the affairs of the world, angry,rigid in their views and perceptions, and intolerant of the views of others. I think this image is unfair, but I don't want to totally disregard it. At the end of the day we Muslims are human,and we aren't immune to it.
Majority of Muslims( including the Orthodox Muslims) recognize the need to renew. A stagnation has taken place over centuries which has affected the development of Islamic juridical theory and laws.
Sheikh Abdul wahab Khalaf ( a 14th century Islamic Scholar from Azhar,Egypt)
said that the stagnation that took place in ijtihad could be attributed to four factors:
" 1) political division and infighting within the Muslim state that derailed scholars in all fields from developing their respective disciplines
2) madhhab-based partisanship that made many scholars preoccupied with a keen interest in supporting their own madhab( school of thought).
3) The “fatwa chaos” that the scholars had failed during that time to control, so they preemptively closed the door of ijtihâd out of caution, which resulted in considerable stagnation
4) moral decay that affected many scholars, causing them to envy and disparage anyone who attempted independent ijtihâd."
( ‘Ilm uṣool al-fiqh by Abdul Wahhâb Khallâf, p. 260.)
As a Muslim I'm not against renewal, the prophet Muhammad( peace be upon him) said in narration that at the turn of every century Allah sends to the nation “those who renew the religion for it.” So I don't think the one who calls for reform should be denounced, since the first one to use this term in this context was the Prophet Muhammad.
I do think that the discussion should be about the intended meaning of this reform. We should clarify what we mean with reform to actually have a productive dialogue. How do we renew a religion? And does this give us( Muslims) the freedom to change the Divine revelation?
I'll explain my view point, and I hope others can share theirs ( if you are still reading this
).
As Muslims we believe God revealed the Quran, and we acknowledge its infallibility, this is part of our fundamental beliefs. We believe God is above any error,so the default status in Islam is that it remains unchanging. But our interpretation and the discourse that surrounds thr texts should not be treated as sacred because it's a human product. What we( sunni Muslims) view as
infallible is the actual text of the Quran and Sunnah.
So most of what is meant by renewal is actually restoration. But aside from that there's something called ijtihad based renewal. This is what Islamic Scholars mean when they say " The change in rulings due to the change in times is not to be denounced."
I think renewal is mostly needed in
in the areas of governance, public policy, international relations, judiciary proceedings,interpersonal relations and relations with people of different theological orientations and religious affiliations. The ijtihad based renewal is something that we can't longer avoid as Muslims.
Our misunderstanding of some of our religious teachings may be contributing to the lack of righteous governance and the level of corruption in some of the Muslim countries. I know that many of us Muslims are uncomfortable when we talk about this, it's because we often fear the unknown, and many of those calling to reform are quick to dismiss the jurists of Islam and the established tradition.
I don't want to make this post too long, if we want to have a productive dialogue on reform we need to ask each other the right questions, and be prepared to listen to what the other has to say. Sadly this doesn't happen much online and offline.
I think that contemporary discourse has worked to establish a stereotypical image of the religiously committed Muslim, one that is ignorant of the affairs of the world, angry,rigid in their views and perceptions, and intolerant of the views of others. I think this image is unfair, but I don't want to totally disregard it. At the end of the day we Muslims are human,and we aren't immune to it.
Majority of Muslims( including the Orthodox Muslims) recognize the need to renew. A stagnation has taken place over centuries which has affected the development of Islamic juridical theory and laws.
Sheikh Abdul wahab Khalaf ( a 14th century Islamic Scholar from Azhar,Egypt)
said that the stagnation that took place in ijtihad could be attributed to four factors:
" 1) political division and infighting within the Muslim state that derailed scholars in all fields from developing their respective disciplines
2) madhhab-based partisanship that made many scholars preoccupied with a keen interest in supporting their own madhab( school of thought).
3) The “fatwa chaos” that the scholars had failed during that time to control, so they preemptively closed the door of ijtihâd out of caution, which resulted in considerable stagnation
4) moral decay that affected many scholars, causing them to envy and disparage anyone who attempted independent ijtihâd."
( ‘Ilm uṣool al-fiqh by Abdul Wahhâb Khallâf, p. 260.)
As a Muslim I'm not against renewal, the prophet Muhammad( peace be upon him) said in narration that at the turn of every century Allah sends to the nation “those who renew the religion for it.” So I don't think the one who calls for reform should be denounced, since the first one to use this term in this context was the Prophet Muhammad.
I do think that the discussion should be about the intended meaning of this reform. We should clarify what we mean with reform to actually have a productive dialogue. How do we renew a religion? And does this give us( Muslims) the freedom to change the Divine revelation?
I'll explain my view point, and I hope others can share theirs ( if you are still reading this
).As Muslims we believe God revealed the Quran, and we acknowledge its infallibility, this is part of our fundamental beliefs. We believe God is above any error,so the default status in Islam is that it remains unchanging. But our interpretation and the discourse that surrounds thr texts should not be treated as sacred because it's a human product. What we( sunni Muslims) view as
infallible is the actual text of the Quran and Sunnah.
So most of what is meant by renewal is actually restoration. But aside from that there's something called ijtihad based renewal. This is what Islamic Scholars mean when they say " The change in rulings due to the change in times is not to be denounced."
I think renewal is mostly needed in
in the areas of governance, public policy, international relations, judiciary proceedings,interpersonal relations and relations with people of different theological orientations and religious affiliations. The ijtihad based renewal is something that we can't longer avoid as Muslims.
Our misunderstanding of some of our religious teachings may be contributing to the lack of righteous governance and the level of corruption in some of the Muslim countries. I know that many of us Muslims are uncomfortable when we talk about this, it's because we often fear the unknown, and many of those calling to reform are quick to dismiss the jurists of Islam and the established tradition.
I don't want to make this post too long, if we want to have a productive dialogue on reform we need to ask each other the right questions, and be prepared to listen to what the other has to say. Sadly this doesn't happen much online and offline.
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Between Quran and the New Testament, I don't see any substantial difference. Thus, the fact that more intolerant interpretations are favored among some Muslims than Christians today seems to me to be a product of cultural and historical trajectory and not the effect of doctrine.
You have a listener here. As a person in India with one of the largest Muslim communities and socio-cultural Islamic renaissance would be most welcome.Before I add my two cents on reform in Islam, I just want to say that I'm an Orthodox Muslim so my views are more conservative than that of the average Muslim.
I think that contemporary discourse has worked to establish a stereotypical image of the religiously committed Muslim, one that is ignorant of the affairs of the world, angry,rigid in their views and perceptions, and intolerant of the views of others. I think this image is unfair, but I don't want to totally disregard it. At the end of the day we Muslims are human,and we aren't immune to it.
Majority of Muslims( including the Orthodox Muslims) recognize the need to renew. A stagnation has taken place over centuries which has affected the development of Islamic juridical theory and laws.
Sheikh Abdul wahab Khalaf ( a 14th century Islamic Scholar from Azhar,Egypt)
said that the stagnation that took place in ijtihad could be attributed to four factors:
" 1) political division and infighting within the Muslim state that derailed scholars in all fields from developing their respective disciplines
2) madhhab-based partisanship that made many scholars preoccupied with a keen interest in supporting their own madhab( school of thought).
3) The “fatwa chaos” that the scholars had failed during that time to control, so they preemptively closed the door of ijtihâd out of caution, which resulted in considerable stagnation
4) moral decay that affected many scholars, causing them to envy and disparage anyone who attempted independent ijtihâd."
( ‘Ilm uṣool al-fiqh by Abdul Wahhâb Khallâf, p. 260.)
As a Muslim I'm not against renewal, the prophet Muhammad( peace be upon him) said in narration that at the turn of every century Allah sends to the nation “those who renew the religion for it.” So I don't think the one who calls for reform should be denounced, since the first one to use this term in this context was the Prophet Muhammad.
I do think that the discussion should be about the intended meaning of this reform. We should clarify what we mean with reform to actually have a productive dialogue. How do we renew a religion? And does this give us( Muslims) the freedom to change the Divine revelation?
I'll explain my view point, and I hope others can share theirs ( if you are still reading this
As Muslims we believe God revealed the Quran, and we acknowledge its infallibility, this is part of our fundamental beliefs. We believe God is above any error,so the default status in Islam is that it remains unchanging. But our interpretation and the discourse that surrounds thr texts should not be treated as sacred because it's a human product. What we( sunni Muslims) view as
infallible is the actual text of the Quran and Sunnah.
So most of what is meant by renewal is actually restoration. But aside from that there's something called ijtihad based renewal. This is what Islamic Scholars mean when they say " The change in rulings due to the change in times is not to be denounced."
I think renewal is mostly needed in
in the areas of governance, public policy, international relations, judiciary proceedings,interpersonal relations and relations with people of different theological orientations and religious affiliations. The ijtihad based renewal is something that we can't longer avoid as Muslims.
Our misunderstanding of some of our religious teachings may be contributing to the lack of righteous governance and the level of corruption in some of the Muslim countries. I know that many of us Muslims are uncomfortable when we talk about this, it's because we often fear the unknown, and many of those calling to reform are quick to dismiss the jurists of Islam and the established tradition.
I don't want to make this post too long, if we want to have a productive dialogue on reform we need to ask each other the right questions, and be prepared to listen to what the other has to say. Sadly this doesn't happen much online and offline.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
This strong atheist thanks you for an excellent post and will add, "Well said!"Before I add my two cents on reform in Islam, I just want to say that I'm an Orthodox Muslim so my views are more conservative than that of the average Muslim.
I think that contemporary discourse has worked to establish a stereotypical image of the religiously committed Muslim, one that is ignorant of the affairs of the world, angry,rigid in their views and perceptions, and intolerant of the views of others. I think this image is unfair, but I don't want to totally disregard it. At the end of the day we Muslims are human,and we aren't immune to it.
Majority of Muslims( including the Orthodox Muslims) recognize the need to renew. A stagnation has taken place over centuries which has affected the development of Islamic juridical theory and laws.
Sheikh Abdul wahab Khalaf ( a 14th century Islamic Scholar from Azhar,Egypt)
said that the stagnation that took place in ijtihad could be attributed to four factors:
" 1) political division and infighting within the Muslim state that derailed scholars in all fields from developing their respective disciplines
2) madhhab-based partisanship that made many scholars preoccupied with a keen interest in supporting their own madhab( school of thought).
3) The “fatwa chaos” that the scholars had failed during that time to control, so they preemptively closed the door of ijtihâd out of caution, which resulted in considerable stagnation
4) moral decay that affected many scholars, causing them to envy and disparage anyone who attempted independent ijtihâd."
( ‘Ilm uṣool al-fiqh by Abdul Wahhâb Khallâf, p. 260.)
As a Muslim I'm not against renewal, the prophet Muhammad( peace be upon him) said in narration that at the turn of every century Allah sends to the nation “those who renew the religion for it.” So I don't think the one who calls for reform should be denounced, since the first one to use this term in this context was the Prophet Muhammad.
I do think that the discussion should be about the intended meaning of this reform. We should clarify what we mean with reform to actually have a productive dialogue. How do we renew a religion? And does this give us( Muslims) the freedom to change the Divine revelation?
I'll explain my view point, and I hope others can share theirs ( if you are still reading this
As Muslims we believe God revealed the Quran, and we acknowledge its infallibility, this is part of our fundamental beliefs. We believe God is above any error,so the default status in Islam is that it remains unchanging. But our interpretation and the discourse that surrounds thr texts should not be treated as sacred because it's a human product. What we( sunni Muslims) view as
infallible is the actual text of the Quran and Sunnah.
So most of what is meant by renewal is actually restoration. But aside from that there's something called ijtihad based renewal. This is what Islamic Scholars mean when they say " The change in rulings due to the change in times is not to be denounced."
I think renewal is mostly needed in
in the areas of governance, public policy, international relations, judiciary proceedings,interpersonal relations and relations with people of different theological orientations and religious affiliations. The ijtihad based renewal is something that we can't longer avoid as Muslims.
Our misunderstanding of some of our religious teachings may be contributing to the lack of righteous governance and the level of corruption in some of the Muslim countries. I know that many of us Muslims are uncomfortable when we talk about this, it's because we often fear the unknown, and many of those calling to reform are quick to dismiss the jurists of Islam and the established tradition.
I don't want to make this post too long, if we want to have a productive dialogue on reform we need to ask each other the right questions, and be prepared to listen to what the other has to say. Sadly this doesn't happen much online and offline.
Sakeenah
Well-Known Member
You have a listener here. As a person in India with one of the largest Muslim communities and socio-cultural Islamic renaissance would be most welcome.
Thank you
I should have added that as a Orthodox Muslim, I think there are certain matters that should not change, whether due to changes in customs, world conditions, technological advancements etc. Some of these are matters of creed,pillars of Islam, rulings in the area of worship such as the times of the different prayers and their composition, the rituals of the pilgrimage and haij. I think this dialogue is a complicated one. That's why it's important to have these discussions with a mujtahid(scholar has been certified as capable of interpreting religious law). As the general public( referring to Muslims) we can be part of the process by establishing foundations and institutions to foster ijtihad based renewal.
The Quran includes verses such as 9:5 and 5:51, which are difficult to reconcile with true respect for non-Muslims. It does not help that Qur'an literalism is not encouraged, but actually expected of the average Muslim.
Wow! I see a HUGE difference between those two books. They're both barbaric, but the Quran is much more like a war manual than the NT.
I don't see it. Show me
NT does have any respect for those who reject Jesus either.
Some statistical studies have been done, and core Islamic scripture, the Quran and the Hadith, both spend roughly half of their pages focusing on how to deal with non-Muslims. The Quran criticizes non-Muslims over 500 times and is rife with instructions for how to deal with them assuming that the context will be one of violent hostilities. The Quran has a distinct "us vs. them" orientation.
Its a book , it can be read. Please point me to places where strategies of how to wage aggression war or using violence against nonbelievers are discussed.
I appreciate the good intentions you bring to this discussion, really!
That said, it strikes me that this orientation makes a difficult job almost impossible. I have to say that what I read between the words in your post is that you have a good sense of morals and ethics that you acquired in spite of your scripture and that now you're trying to reverse-engineer your good work back into scripture that's mostly incompatible with what you rally believe. I wish you all the best luck, but I really think you're handcuffing yourself.
This feels a little like a "LMGTFY" request, but here's a nice handy summary of 109 verses in he Quran that speak of war with non-believers:
The Quran's Verses of Violence
Shall we go over them. You already know that the first verse is regarding fighting for self defense if waylaid during pilgrimage, right? Obvious from the previous verses.
I will look at the rest later.
I will say that the Islamic definition of "defense" is very different from the common western definition. In Islam, if a non-believer resists being converted, that non-violent resistance can be viewed as "an attack" on Islam which can then be dealt with violently. So for example, when a cartoonist draws a picture of Muhammad, that is considered an attack on Islam, and any violence Muslims commit in response to the cartoon is considered "defensive".