Now It's Student Led Prayer at Football Games

[Faithofchristian]

Since you seem to be the only Christian on this discussion I want to ask a simple question maybe 2. 1) do you think it would be lawful if in that same situation he/she would have said prayers over the loud speaker to Shiva or Satan to a mostly christian audience.
2) How do you think the mostly Christian audience would have reacted to that student?
I believe that if you use your empathy and intellictual honesty you can then understand why this becomes a problem.
Historically, Christians have never been favorable for equal rights to those who do not share their faith.
If you cannot answer those questions honestly I will be glad to assist you (with evidence of course).
Make my day.

Hey whatever turns them on go for it.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Nor does it you, pal

True. So let's leave ancestry out of it and stick with who has verifiable claims.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

The Supreme Court does, since when does the Supreme Court disagrees with me.
Have you any proof of this, all you have is your talk,talk,talk -----------ect and --------ect
No Proof -------ect

Um, the proof has been posted multiple times throughout the thread... all the links to supreme court cases

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

No i.mean your false accusations

What "false accusations ", specifically?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

So you say, heck anyone could throw a year that proves nothing, better check it again, see what the Supreme Court ruled way after that.

If you're claiming the Supreme Court has since ruled otherwise, it's up to you to show it. Otherwise the ruling stands. Supreme Court rulings don't just expire after a certain time. They either stay current, or have to be overturned in a new case.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Who was the first Religion in this country, before it became the United States of America.
Go ahead this oughta be good.
Let's see just how much you actually do know about history.

There was no "first religion" in this country. When the U.S. was formed there were quite a few different religions going on.

Now if you mean what was the first religion in what eventually became America then the answer would be some sort of Native American shamanism. We know for sure that the answer was not Christianity.

 

[Faithofchristian]

If you're claiming the Supreme Court has since ruled otherwise, it's up to you to show it. Otherwise the ruling stands. Supreme Court rulings don't just expire after a certain time. They either stay current, or have to be overturned in a new case.

Your case, is like a donut roll, it only rolls so far then it fall apart.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Your case, is like a donut roll, it only rolls so far then it fall apart.

Funny, too bad it is false. When it comes to interpreting the Constitution the Supreme Court has the final say so.

 

[Father Heathen]

There are many ways to be a Christian nation besides being a theocracy. We are currently a Christian nation, and we are certainly not a theocracy.

Treaty of Tripoli.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No i.mean your false accusations

So far, I've been happy to let you embarrass yourself, since it provided an opportunity for me to make points that other people reading the thread might find useful. I think that's all used up now.

So at this point, I'll make you an offer: I'm willing to keep engaging with you, but only if you're coherent. Do you want to do that?
For starters, you can tell us - clearly and specifically - what "accusations" you're referring to.

If you can't do that, you're going to confirm for me that you have no interest in real communication or understanding here.

 

[Faithofchristian]

So far, I've been happy to let you embarrass yourself, since it provided an opportunity for me to make points that other people reading the thread might find useful. I think that's all used up now.

So at this point, I'll make you an offer: I'm willing to keep engaging with you, but only if you're coherent. Do you want to do that?
For starters, you can tell us - clearly and specifically - what "accusations" you're referring to.

If you can't do that, you're going to confirm for me that you have no interest in real communication or understanding here.

So you admit, making Accusations. By asking which Accusations.

You did say ----> clearly and specifically - what "accusations" you're referring to)

So you admit making Accusations.
Now that's Amazing. That's a first.

So according to what you said there's more than one accusation, that you made.

Notice you did say ( Accusations) as in many
and not ( Accusation) as in one.

So just how many Accusations did you make?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So you admit, making Accusations. By asking which Accusations.

You did say ----> clearly and specifically - what "accusations" you're referring to)

So you admit making Accusations.
Now that's Amazing. That's a first.

So according to what you said there's more than one accusation, that you made.

Notice you did say ( Accusations) as in many
and not ( Accusation) as in one.

So just how many Accusations did you make?

As I said: I'm willing to keep engaging with you, but only if you're coherent. Do you want to do that?

 

[loganonekenobi]

Hey whatever turns them on go for it.

You didnt answer my questions.
I'll word it a differently then.
1) is it or is it not legal for students (or faculty) to share their prayers with a captive audience that did not choose to be their.
2) would you or would you not support the freedom of a faith other than yours to say such prayers over a loud speaker in a place where your taxes go?
These simple questions must be very difficult for you to answer. I dont understand why.
Either get the courage to admit that you are okay with favoritism of Christianity in our public places or use you empathy to understand that this situation is wrong to non-christians.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

1)Culturaly... the majority of people are christian.2) Legally... the law that this country is based on does not favor any one religion including christianity. and to answer question #2. In a public tax funded school anytime an audience is captive (or must hear it with out consent) to a prayer then it does violate the 1st amendment. Any person is free to pray as they choose but not over the loud speaker. How it influences our every day lives? Just imaging that this country was culturally Hindu but legally secular. How do you think the Christians would react to a prayer led by a student to Shiva over the loud speaker? We already know from public office meetings prayers to Satan that they would lose their minds. The sad fact is that Christians don't truly believe in fair treatment of other faiths. put simply, they don't play nice with the other kids and that is the problem.

The Law is not completely unbiased. For example, the law favors a monotheistic God, i.e. during public invocations etc.

As a Jew, I've had to live in a society where Jesus gets prayed to in public. For example, I can't attend a wedding without Christian prayers. I am respectfully silent, but I don't join in. If I lived in India, it would be the same thing, except it would be Hindu prayers. If I lived in Myanmar, it would be Buddhist chants. If I lived in Turkey, it would be Muslim prayers. As long as they allow me to practice my own religion without interference, they can have their own religion.

Satanism is different. It is a religion by their own admission dedicated to selfishness and is therefore terrible for society. I don't care if it doesn't enjoy the same privileges. For example, they should not be given 501C tax exempt status since there is nothing charitable about them

Scientology is not a real religion -- it is known to be a con job.

Pastafarianism is also not a real religion -- it has no true believers.

 

[Faithofchristian]

You didnt answer my questions.
I'll word it a differently then.
1) is it or is it not legal for students (or faculty) to share their prayers with a captive audience that did not choose to be their.
2) would you or would you not support the freedom of a faith other than yours to say such prayers over a loud speaker in a place where your taxes go?
These simple questions must be very difficult for you to answer. I dont understand why.
Either get the courage to admit that you are okay with favoritism of Christianity in our public places or use you empathy to understand that this situation is wrong to non-christians.

Like I said, it wouldn't bother me at all, if another faith prayed over the loud system, but I can guarantee you, it will bother you.
If it wouldn't bother you, then what are you complaining about

 

[loganonekenobi]

Like I said, it wouldn't bother me at all, if another faith prayed over the loud system, but I can guarantee you, it will bother you.
If it wouldn't bother you, then what are you complaining about

You still didnt answer the question.

 

[Faithofchristian]

You still didnt answer the question.

You ask me, if it would bother me if another faith would say prayer over the intercom system, and I said not at all.
But it would bother you, before it would bother me and that's a guarantee.

You ask ----> 1) is it or is it not legal for students (or faculty) to share their prayers with a captive audience that did not choose to be their)

Well seeing that you left yourself wide open on that one, and didn't fully explain who exactly those students and faculty are, they all could be all Christian school, which would be legal.

That all depends who those students are, could be of another faith. So it wouldn't bother me at all. But it would bother you. And that's a guarantee.

Let's look at the last half of what you said,
You said ---> ( to share their prayers with a captive audience that did not choose to be their)

Notice you said, ( captive audience that did not choose to be their)
My question is, As to why would anyone want to be somewhere if they did not choose to be there in the first place?
Sounds alot like people are being force into being somewhere that they did not want to be at.
But as it is, it wouldn't bother me at all, if another people of another faith stood up and gave prayer, But it sure would bother you and that's a guarantee. Before it would bother me.

Here's my question back to you, would it not bother you, if students of another faith gave prayer before a football game
Let's for say, Muslims?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Satanism is different. It is a religion by their own admission dedicated to selfishness and is therefore terrible for society. I don't care if it doesn't enjoy the same privileges. For example, they should not be given 501C tax exempt status since there is nothing charitable about them

Going to need a source to back up this claim; particularly that first sentence.

 

[loganonekenobi]

You ask me, if it would bother me if another faith would say prayer over the intercom system, and I said not at all.
But it would bother you, before it would bother me and that's a guarantee.

You ask ----> 1) is it or is it not legal for students (or faculty) to share their prayers with a captive audience that did not choose to be their)

Well seeing that you left yourself wide open on that one, and didn't fully explain who exactly those students and faculty are, they all could be all Christian school, which would be legal.

That all depends who those students are, could be of another faith. So it wouldn't bother me at all. But it would bother you. And that's a guarantee.

Let's look at the last half of what you said,
You said ---> ( to share their prayers with a captive audience that did not choose to be their)

Notice you said, ( captive audience that did not choose to be their)
My question is, As to why would anyone want to be somewhere if they did not choose to be there in the first place?
Sounds alot like people are being force into being somewhere that they did not want to be at.
But as it is, it wouldn't bother me at all, if another people of another faith stood up and gave prayer, But it sure would bother you and that's a guarantee. Before it would bother me.

Here's my question back to you, would it not bother you, if students of another faith gave prayer before a football game
Let's for say, Muslims?

I clearly stated "tax funded". Which currently means every one, no matter what faith, pays for it. In a private Christian school i have no grievance in what prayers they say. i dont pay for that (for now) and my kids don't go to those schools You clearly over looked that important bit of information in my questions.
a foot ball game is enjoyed by all those who are there whether or not the share the same faith. They are not there to listen to a prayer yet they must endure this so as to watch the game. If you want to mince words instead of understanding the issue then further discussion will not prove fruitful.
You may not be offended for yourself however, as a parent i can "guarantee" that you would be offended that your children were exposed to those Muslim prayers.

 

[loganonekenobi]

It is a typical tactic on these forums to down play the seriousness of an issue. To this end I will show how this line of thought is deliberately detrimental.

Religion in the Public Schools | Pew Research Center

https://www3.nd.edu/~rbarger/www7/catholic.html

Religion, and controversy, always part of U.S. education | Reuters

I like the last one especially because it says, and i quote
"Ironically, it was fear of Catholics, not court rulings on the separation of church and state, that did the most to secularize public schools, said Haynes."
It's also interesting to to witness that the current regime of the U.S. is okay with the "vouchers" for private schools up until that money may go to Muslim private schools. That tells me all I need to know about how the Christians feel about "religious liberty".
Just as a side note, it was fear of atheism not communism that drove the Catholic church to back Hitler's rise to power. I love history.
This really goes to the very heart of the discussion.
It's one thing to let your adult neighbor worship as he/she chooses. It's quite another thing to expose those practices in any way to your children.
That's the point. The Christians, whether protestant or catholic, know that such exchange of ideas is dangerous for the continuity of their faith.
So when i ask you the simple question "would it bother you if your child was in a foot ball game which led with a prayer to Shiva?" Historically the real answer in this country is a resounding yes as is evident by my above sources. In case you didnt read it, people died over this issue.
Now I entreat you to understand the reverse of this situation which is happening all over this country then maybe we can come to a fair agreement.
From what history shows us of all Abrahamic Mesionic monotheistic faiths, I hold little hope for such an event as agreement to happen.