Nowhere in the Bible does it say or infer that mary the Mother of Christ...

[sooda]

Yes - but all the stories are literally true, not mere metaphors.

It could also be allegorical as in "teachings" feeding the soul. The "word" is often referred to as food or quenching the thirst.

The Immaculate Conception does not refer to Jesus at all.

Do you believe in Pinocchio?

 

[sooda]

Not all killings are murder - but it is the nature of the act of killing that determines whether it is murder; legal definitions aren't arbitrary.

The fact that a foetus is attached to its mother, does NOT of course make it part of its mother.

Really? I am unaware of any artificial wombs acting independently so far.

 

[sooda]

The Bible is Sacred Scripture, only incidentally "literature."

The world is full of sacred scripture.. Don't you question?

 

[Sandra Jayne]

God admits He can't do everything.
He cannot tell a lie
He cannot be tempted or tempt others
He cannot deny Himself
He cannot do evil
There are some things called 'necessary truth's', 2+2=4 and it appears God is also 'subject' to necessary truths.

 

[Catholicus]

Correct - such an object being an impossibility, under the laws of reason and logic that God Himself has created.

 

[Sandra Jayne]

Actually, the bible does say Mary was without sin. Do remember though that it was through Adam that sin entered the world.

In Luke we're told an angel appeared to Mary and told her she had been chosen by God to bear to life the Messiah.
Mary , in that scripture in Luke 1:28 we are told that Mary was highly favored.
Luke 1:28 [RSV]: "And he came to her and said, 'Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!'"


Strong's Hebrew Greek: charitoo
Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
charitoō
1) to make graceful
1a) charming, lovely, agreeable
2) to peruse with grace, compass with favour
3) to honour with blessings

Part of Speech: verb

Relation: from Charis G5485 (grace)
1) grace
1a) that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
2) good will, loving-kindness, favour
2a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
3) what is due to grace
3a) the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
3b) the token or proof of grace, benefit
3b1) a gift of grace
3b2) benefit, bounty
4) thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward
Part of Speech: noun feminine

Relation: from Chairo G5463

Charitoo is a passive participle of kecharitomenem "highly favored".

Mary was then highly favored or, grace filled, given grace. (See above)
In Christianity Christians are saved by God's grace. God's grace allows for us, indwelt by his Holy Spirit, to live holy and righteous lives without sin because we are no longer in that category of sinner.
Mary was highly favored, kecharitomenem, grace filled and that is why the angel told Mary she was chosen to bear the Messiah into the world.
She was filled with God's grace, saved, sinless, and therefore was able to bear Christ to life.

 

[Sandra Jayne]

Whilst I can accept Mary was a virgin when she conceived Christ she did not remain one after marriage as Jesus had brothers and sisters.
After the birth of Jesus Mary went to the temple to give a sin offering. She, too, had inherited sin from Adam.
Jesus as prophesised would be born from the lineage of David and she was favoured by God to become the mother of Jesus but following his birth she was no more 'important' than other followers of Jesus.
The apostle Peter makes no mention of her at all in his inspired writings.
In his writings Paul spoke of her only as "a woman".
As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”
He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it". Luke 11:27-28 Jesus didn't pay any special honour here to his mother which he could have.
At the wedding in Cana- When the wine ran out, Jesus’ mother said to Him, “They have no more wine.” And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does this have to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” Jesus certainly didn't address her as if she was 'mother of God'. John 2:3-4
Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you." "Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked. Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother." Mark 3:31-35 Here Jesus appears to be indicating that his biological family is of no more importance to him than his spiritual family.

I think it is interesting that the place where the teaching that Mary is the Mother of God was confirmed. The Council of Ephesus held in the basilica of the Theotokos in 431. This part of the city was well known for its worship of Artemis, or Diana as the Romans called her. This idea of a 'Mother goddess' is pagan, there is no scriptural basis to give any veneration to Mary, Jesus and his disciples didn't.

 

[metis]

This idea of a 'Mother goddess' is pagan,

Mary is not at all considered a "goddess" in Catholicism.

there is no scriptural basis to give any veneration to Mary, Jesus and his disciples didn't.

Jesus did when crucified when he told John to "take thee thy mother". Also there's the Magnificat said by Elizabeth about Mary.

 

[Sandra Jayne]

Mary is not at all considered a "goddess" in Catholicism.

Jesus did when crucified when he told John to "take thee thy mother". Also there's the Magnificat said by Elizabeth about Mary.

I would say calling Mary the mother of the only One God is elevating her way above being a goddess.

What you refer to as the Magnificat in no way appears to indicate Mary is special other than having been chosen to be the mother of Jesus.

As for what Jesus said to John at the time of his death he was pretty much asking John to be responsible for and take care of Mary after he was dead which was their way.

 

[metis]

I would say calling Mary the mother of the only One God is elevating her way above being a goddess.

A "goddess" is worshiped, which is forbidden in Catholicism. If you have doubts about that, maybe check it out for yourself in the "Catechism of the Catholic Church". Mary is prayed through, much like we can pray for each other, such as the wording "... pray for us sinners..." as found in the Rosary prayers.​

What you refer to as the Magnificat in no way appears to indicate Mary is special other than having been chosen to be the mother of Jesus.

Luke 1[46] And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord,
[47] and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
[48] for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; ...

Therefore, Mary rather clearly had and has a special distinction, even for us today.

As for what Jesus said to John at the time of his death he was pretty much asking John to be responsible for and take care of Mary after he was dead which was their way.

John 19[27] Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" From that hour the disciple took her into his own household.

Notice that Jesus tells John to take "your mother" even though Mary is not John's mother. Essentially, Jesus is giving Mary to really the entire Church because she did and does have a special designation whether you want to recognize that or not.
Yes, it is because she was Jesus' mother, but throughout Christian history she has long been recognized as being blessed for "all generations" as it says in Luke, and some of us want to give her that special recognition, and frankly I don't see any harm in doing that.

 

[sojourner]

The Bible is Sacred Scripture, only incidentally "literature."

“Sacred scripture” contains several categories of literature. Your quote is like saying that people are only incidentally human beings.

Literary criticism is part of the process of exegesis.

Once again: when you get a clue about literary criticism, contact me.

 

[sojourner]

Not all killings are murder - but it is the nature of the act of killing that determines whether it is murder; legal definitions aren't arbitrary.

The fact that a foetus is attached to its mother, does NOT of course make it part of its mother.

No, they aren’t. But it’s not the nature of the act, it’s rather the determination of the jury that determines whether it’s murder.

Sharing a blood supply, sharing nutrients, sharing immunities, as well as the fact that the body produces the egg all point to your statement being wrong.

 

[The Anointed]

No old man, I'm not confused. (If you want to call me kiddo)
And you're bearing false witness as well concerning my post. I never said that. If you can't speak truth don't speak to me at all.

And now you prove yourself to be a liar, by saying that you never said; "It is impossible for God to create something from God's own energy and then not be able to move that which exists of and from God."

When anyone and everyone can see that in my post #90, I posed the question; "Can God create an object which cannot be moved by any power? If he can, then even God would not be able to move that object, proving that he cannot do everything. If He can move that unmovable object, that would prove that he cannot create an object which cannot be moved by any power.

To which you responded in Your post #93; "The omnipotent paradox now.
Everything that exists exists due to being created of and from and by source. I.E. creator, God.
It is impossible for God to create something from God's own energy and then not be able to move that which exists of and from God."

Thereby confessing that God cannot create an object that he cannot move.

You said that it is impossible for God to create something that even he could not move, and you then go on to lie, by saying that you never did say such a thing. When anyone and everyone can plainly see that you indeed did say that it is 'IMPOSSIBLE' for God to create an object that he couldn't move.

May the Lord forgive you for lying.

 

[SugarOcean]

And now you prove yourself to be a liar, by saying that you never said; "It is impossible for God to create something from God's own energy and then not be able to move that which exists of and from God."

When anyone and everyone can see that in my post #90, I posed the question; "Can God create an object which cannot be moved by any power? If he can, then even God would not be able to move that object, proving that he cannot do everything. If He can move that unmovable object, that would prove that he cannot create an object which cannot be moved by any power.

To which you responded in Your post #93; "The omnipotent paradox now.
Everything that exists exists due to being created of and from and by source. I.E. creator, God.
It is impossible for God to create something from God's own energy and then not be able to move that which exists of and from God."

Thereby confessing that God cannot create an object that he cannot move.

You said that is impossible for God to create something that even he could not move, and you then go on to lie, by saying that you never did say such a thing. When anyone and everyone can plainly see that you indeed did say that it is 'IMPOSSIBLE' for God to create an object that he couldn't move.

May the Lord forgive you for lying.

What's wrong with you is way beyond my capacity to assist its correction.

 

[The Anointed]

Not all killings are murder - but it is the nature of the act of killing that determines whether it is murder; legal definitions aren't arbitrary.

The fact that a foetus is attached to its mother, does NOT of course make it part of its mother.

You are body, soul and spirit. Your body is created from the universal elements, and it is activated by the universal soul, which is the animating principle that pervades the entire universal body, activating everything within the universe, and it is to the universal soul=LIFE-FORCE, that all information or SPIRIT, is gathered, for God is the collective consciousness of all the life forms that he has become..

“YOU,” as a human being, are Body, Soul and Spirit, but “YOU” the invisible mind, are spirit. The body in which you, [The mind] are developing as the supreme head and controller of that body, is made up of the universal elements, which is activated by the soul [Animating life force] to which all the spirit [gathered information] of all your ancestors, human and pre-human has been gathered in its evolution to become who you are, and that parental spirit dwells behind the veil of the flesh to the inner most sanctuary of its temporary earthly tabernacle or tent, which is your physical body, as it awaits the creation of its glorious temple of incorruptible Light. [THE SON OF MAN] The spiritual beings that evolve from the body of mankind.

The woman was born with the egg that was a part of her body and remained a part of her body when it was fertilized. Any information received by the mother body was shared information with the developing foetus, which would not begin to develop an independent mind/spirit until it is separated from the mother body and takes its first breath.

Flesh and blood cannot and does not enter into the Kingdom of God, it is only the independent minds/spirits that develop within those bodies, which an unborn foetus, does not have.

If that body in which your parental spirit dwells, were born without the sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, etc, then no information whatsoever could be taken into the brain, and “YOU” who are spirit [Gathered information] could never have begun to develop and the living body, in which the parental spirit dwells, would soon die, never having developed a personality or “CONTROLLING GODHEAD” to that body.

It is for this reason that God does not consider an unborn foetus as a human being as revealed in Exodus 21: 22-25; Good News Bible Catholic Study Edition; "If some men are fighting and hurt a pregnant woman so that she loses her child, but she is not injured in any other way, the one who hurt her is to be fined whatever amount the woman's husband demands, subject to the approval of the judges. 23 But if the woman herself is injured, the punishment shall be life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

To miscarry any foetus, in the desert in those days, which was not extremely well developed, would mean the death of that foetus. And yet, causing the death of that unborn foetus, was only punishable by having to pay a fine, But if the woman herself is injured, (A fully developed human being of Body, soul, and Spirit) the punishment was to be life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

 

[rstrats]

metis,
re: "Jesus did when crucified when he told John to 'take thee thy mother'".

You have "take thee thy mother" in quote marks. What version of scripture are you using? And I don't see where John is mentioned in any of the versions that I have. What version do you have which says John?

 

[Sandra Jayne]

A "goddess" is worshiped, which is forbidden in Catholicism. If you have doubts about that, maybe check it out for yourself in the "Catechism of the Catholic Church". Mary is prayed through, much like we can pray for each other, such as the wording "... pray for us sinners..." as found in the Rosary prayers.​

Luke 1[46] And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord,
[47] and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
[48] for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; ...

Therefore, Mary rather clearly had and has a special distinction, even for us today.


John 19[27] Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" From that hour the disciple took her into his own household.

Notice that Jesus tells John to take "your mother" even though Mary is not John's mother. Essentially, Jesus is giving Mary to really the entire Church because she did and does have a special designation whether you want to recognize that or not.
Yes, it is because she was Jesus' mother, but throughout Christian history she has long been recognized as being blessed for "all generations" as it says in Luke, and some of us want to give her that special recognition, and frankly I don't see any harm in doing that.

Why would anyone want Mary to pray for them, surely the sacrifice Jesus made should be good enough, it paved the way for people to pray to God through Jesus.
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6

I think you are 'reading' too much into what Jesus said to John, he was pretty much saying I am going to die so you go and be as a mother to John and John you be as a son to my mother. As I said in a previous thread there were plenty of opportunities for Jesus to venerate his mother but he never did.
My grandmother used to say her mother was blessed because she had ten children all of whom survived. Worth noting the Greek word used for blessed is often translated as happy or fortunate and this occurs in a number of bibles.
She hasn't been recognised throughout Christian history as being special in any way until 431C.E., don't you find it odd that she received no special recognition by the early Christians?
Whatever you may claim many Catholics I meet refer to Mary far more often than to Jesus or Yahweh. Mary didn't remain a virgin and Jesus is no longer a babe in arms and all worship should go to God because as He admits He is a jealous God.

 

[sooda]

A "goddess" is worshiped, which is forbidden in Catholicism. If you have doubts about that, maybe check it out for yourself in the "Catechism of the Catholic Church". Mary is prayed through, much like we can pray for each other, such as the wording "... pray for us sinners..." as found in the Rosary prayers.​

Luke 1[46] And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord,
[47] and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
[48] for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; ...

Therefore, Mary rather clearly had and has a special distinction, even for us today.


John 19[27] Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" From that hour the disciple took her into his own household.

Notice that Jesus tells John to take "your mother" even though Mary is not John's mother. Essentially, Jesus is giving Mary to really the entire Church because she did and does have a special designation whether you want to recognize that or not.
Yes, it is because she was Jesus' mother, but throughout Christian history she has long been recognized as being blessed for "all generations" as it says in Luke, and some of us want to give her that special recognition, and frankly I don't see any harm in doing that.

Evangelical Protestants always reject veneration of Mary.. Seems pathetically unnecessary to me.

 

[Sandra Jayne]

You are body, soul and spirit. Your body is created from the universal elements, and it is activated by the universal soul, which is the animating principle that pervades the entire universal body, activating everything within the universe, and it is to the universal soul=LIFE-FORCE, that all information or SPIRIT, is gathered, for God is the collective consciousness of all the life forms that he has become..

“YOU,” as a human being, are Body, Soul and Spirit, but “YOU” the invisible mind, are spirit. The body in which you, [The mind] are developing as the supreme head and controller of that body, is made up of the universal elements, which is activated by the soul [Animating life force] to which all the spirit [gathered information] of all your ancestors, human and pre-human has been gathered in its evolution to become who you are, and that parental spirit dwells behind the veil of the flesh to the inner most sanctuary of its temporary earthly tabernacle or tent, which is your physical body, as it awaits the creation of its glorious temple of incorruptible Light. [THE SON OF MAN] The spiritual beings that evolve from the body of mankind.

The woman was born with the egg that was a part of her body and remained a part of her body when it was fertilized. Any information received by the mother body was shared information with the developing foetus, which would not begin to develop an independent mind/spirit until it is separated from the mother body and takes its first breath.

Flesh and blood cannot and does not enter into the Kingdom of God, it is only the independent minds/spirits that develop within those bodies, which an unborn foetus, does not have.

If that body in which your parental spirit dwells, were born without the sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, etc, then no information whatsoever could be taken into the brain, and “YOU” who are spirit [Gathered information] could never have begun to develop and the living body, in which the parental spirit dwells, would soon die, never having developed a personality or “CONTROLLING GODHEAD” to that body.

It is for this reason that God does not consider an unborn foetus as a human being as revealed in Exodus 21: 22-25; Good News Bible Catholic Study Edition; "If some men are fighting and hurt a pregnant woman so that she loses her child, but she is not injured in any other way, the one who hurt her is to be fined whatever amount the woman's husband demands, subject to the approval of the judges. 23 But if the woman herself is injured, the punishment shall be life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

To miscarry any foetus, in the desert in those days, which was not extremely well developed, would mean the death of that foetus. And yet, causing the death of that unborn foetus, was only punishable by having to pay a fine, But if the woman herself is injured, (A fully developed human being of Body, soul, and Spirit) the punishment was to be life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

I think in better translations.... a person is fined if no fatality occurs to either child or mother but if either child or mother is fatally injured the assailants should be put to death.

 

[rstrats]

Sandra Jayne,
re: "I think you are 'reading' too much into what Jesus said to John, he was pretty much saying I am going to die so you go and be as a mother to John and John you be as a son to my mother."

As I asked metis, what version do you have that says it was John?