Obama and the Republican Party

[esmith]

Let me ask those that feel that shutting down the government over the ACA is wrong. A hypothetical scenario as follows:

Some year in the future a political party wins the Presidency, the Senate, and the House. They appoint Supreme Court Justices that have the same philosophy as them. This majority has passed a law that abortions, except to save the life of the mother, are a criminal act and is murder applicable to the mother and those preforming the abortion. The law goes into effect and is ruled Constitutional by the Supreme Court. In a follow-on election, a party that disagrees with this law wins the House. They then attach a rider to a bill to fund the government that seeks to overturn the abortion law and are willing to shut down the government to do so. Do you agree with them or not?

 

[Falvlun]

Let me ask those that feel that shutting down the government over the ACA is wrong. A hypothetical scenario as follows:

Some year in the future a political party wins the Presidency, the Senate, and the House. They appoint Supreme Court Justices that have the same philosophy as them. This majority has passed a law that abortions, except to save the life of the mother, are a criminal act and is murder applicable to the mother and those preforming the abortion. The law goes into effect and is ruled Constitutional by the Supreme Court. In a follow-on election, a party that disagrees with this law wins the House. They then attach a rider to a bill to fund the government that seeks to overturn the abortion law and are willing to shut down the government to do so. Do you agree with them or not?

I am actually against any sort of riders or amendments to any bills that have nothing to do with the bill itself. I think that is an end-run around democracy and encourages corruption.

But even so, no I don't think holding the government-- and more importantly, the economy-- hostage over a law that you disagree with is ethical or good governing or democratic. If the liberals of the future wanna get rid of an abortion ban, I would not support them shutting down the government, at the risk of derailing our fragile economy. I would support them doing it the way they should: by getting the votes for an actual bill that repeals it.

 

[Draka]

Ah yes, gotta love them Tea Baggers in office. Let's whine and moan and pitch a temper tantrum fit because we don't like something most everyone else have already approved and agreed upon. We'll hold the government hostage, make it shut down, make the military troops continue to serve and put their lives at risk but not bother to pay them, shut everything down (hey gun advocates - that's means no buying guns either!), all because we want to stomp our feet and go WAAAAAAAAA! Irony is...the ACA isn't even dependent upon what needs to be handled now anyway. What needs to truly be handled is the swift removal of heads from rears. Which can only be done when they deflate from the enormous egos that seem to be swelling them up. Bobble heads...gotta love'em.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Let me ask those that feel that shutting down the government over the ACA is wrong. A hypothetical scenario as follows:

Some year in the future a political party wins the Presidency, the Senate, and the House. They appoint Supreme Court Justices that have the same philosophy as them. This majority has passed a law that abortions, except to save the life of the mother, are a criminal act and is murder applicable to the mother and those preforming the abortion. The law goes into effect and is ruled Constitutional by the Supreme Court. In a follow-on election, a party that disagrees with this law wins the House. They then attach a rider to a bill to fund the government that seeks to overturn the abortion law and are willing to shut down the government to do so. Do you agree with them or not?

Democrats could have attached all sorts of riders to this CR but they didn't. They want a Clean CR. That's it. Boehner should have appointed conferees six months ago but he didn't Cruz and others were fighting Democrats on going to conference to reconcile the budgets. Democrats could have attached Immigration reform, gun control and a host of other provisions the House doesn't want to bring up but they didn't because that's not how you govern. And I don't want to hear another Republican talk about what the "American People want or don't want"....considering 90% of the people want background checks......So let's stop playing games...pass a Clean CR and move forward....

 

[Revoltingest]

He chose to have a basic CR sent back to the House to fund the government. House Republicans chose to reject it. They know the Senate won't past the provision and they know the President won't sign it. Instead of funding the government with the Clean CR that they were sent they're choosing to fight an unwindable fight. They're choosing to shut the government down on principal. This could have been avoided months ago through regular or and budget reconciliation but they chose not to do that.
Funding the government until a long term budget agreement is established has nothing to do with the ACA. The ACA gets funded regardless.
Do you not place blame on both sides?

Yes. The blame for not working together is bi-patisan.

Do you not agree that the ACA should be defunded?

No. I go with Rand Paul's statement about Obamacare, ie, that it's here to stay. He would be a fierce opponent of it, but since he's knuckled under, this speaks to its permanence. While philosophically I'd oppose it, in the real political world it seems most cost effective to avoid a shutdown.

You've stated more than once that you don't care whether it's funded or not but continue to say that (Obama could simply "choose" to not be responsible for a government shutdown by simply gutting funding for the law)....but I haven't heard you state once that it's unreasonable to try and defund a law that has nothing to do with funding the government.....Which leads me to believe you agree with Republicans. Personally I don't care if you do....:sad:

You just keep going on & on about this, dontcha?
I don't care if you don't care that I don't care.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Yes. The blame for not working together is bi-patisan.

Democrats agreed that they should present their budget along Paul Ryan's budget for reconciliation. Democrats have been asking for months that Boehner appoint conferees so that they can work on a bi-partisan budget that would have avoided all this. Democrats worked with republicans to pass a Clean CR at current Sequestration levels. It went to the House. Where was the bi-partisanship in the House? Boehner didn't even bring the Clean CR to the floor. No Democrat or Republican had the opportunity to vote on it. The word was that if he had brought the Clean CR to the floor it would have garnered bi-partisan support and would have passed. He went with ('Plan B')....Now that the Senate has tabled his shutdown proposal he is huddled up in a conference room drafting a bill to send back to the Senate that delays the Individual Mandate......So he doesn't mind the ACA going forward but wants to delay the mandate.....Now I thought it was about delaying the whole dang thing...Like I've been saying...The ACA isn't the problem and isn't dependent on the CR one bit....

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Military Report - House Moves to Protect Military Pay

Well let see what the bantam rooster Harry Reid does with the HR 3210, the Pay Our Military Act
Bill Text - 113th Congress (2013-2014) - THOMAS (Library of Congress)

Would have had to do anything with it had both sides reconciled their budgets months ago......

 

[esmith]

I deleted the post on HR3210 because it passed the Senate with unanimous consent

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I deleted the post on HR3210 because it passed the Senate with unanimous consent

Awesome....

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Presumably we're a few hours away from shutdown. I was concerned about how this would affect the stock market, and came across the following:

-- Is There a Silver Lining to the Government Shutdown? - Bloomberg

It looks like a downright healthy thing to do, actually.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Presumably we're a few hours away from shutdown. I was concerned about how this would affect the stock market, and came across the following:


-- Is There a Silver Lining to the Government Shutdown? - Bloomberg

It looks like a downright healthy thing to do, actually.

Have you been paying attention to the markets last week and today? There's a lot of uncertainty. While a government shutdown is bad...it's nothing to a default on the debt ceiling. A short term shutdown might not raise an eyebrow too much but the markets will be in the red nonetheless. If a short term shutdown go long the consumers are less confident to spend money on goods and services and investors may begin to panic. A downgrade is way worse. The markets act vilolently when even the threat of default or an actual downgrade happens. It's not a pretty sight.

Market Report - Aug. 8, 2011 - CNNMoney


Try this one on for size. It puts bot side by side and it isn't a pretty picture. The markets of yesteryear are different than today. With the rise of the internet, technology and an increase footprint in the global economy money moves extremely fast...

http://www.seeitmarket.com/should-markets-fear-a-government-shutdown-15054/

 

[Revoltingest]

Democrats agreed that they should present their budget along Paul Ryan's budget for reconciliation. Democrats have been asking for months that Boehner appoint conferees so that they can work on a bi-partisan budget that would have avoided all this. Democrats worked with republicans to pass a Clean CR at current Sequestration levels. It went to the House. Where was the bi-partisanship in the House? Boehner didn't even bring the Clean CR to the floor. No Democrat or Republican had the opportunity to vote on it. The word was that if he had brought the Clean CR to the floor it would have garnered bi-partisan support and would have passed. He went with ('Plan B')....Now that the Senate has tabled his shutdown proposal he is huddled up in a conference room drafting a bill to send back to the Senate that delays the Individual Mandate......So he doesn't mind the ACA going forward but wants to delay the mandate.....Now I thought it was about delaying the whole dang thing...Like I've been saying...The ACA isn't the problem and isn't dependent on the CR one bit....

So many words blaming Republicans, yet Obama's veto will do the deed.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

So many words blaming Republicans, yet Obama's veto will do the deed.

Ok...Rev...:sad:

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Makes no sense....Shutting down the government means the ACA STILL gets funded....so what's the point. Those who say (advocate) a shut down like you did in your next post shows that you may not be completely aware of the various functions the government performs....It's not just about the military.....

Very true! This issue has been fought over 40 plus times including in the Supreme Court! These people are hellbent on making the whole country suffer. The democratic process held hostage by the minority.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Very true! This issue has been fought over 40 plus times including in the Supreme Court! These people are hellbent on making the whole country suffer. The democratic process held hostage by the minority.

So true. Tomorrow isn't going to be pretty for a lot of people.......If there's anything that's a job killer or economy killer it's a government shutdown...especially a longterm shutdown. Then there's a whole ne fight that shouldn't even be a fight that's coming up and that's the debt ceiling. Messing with that will certainly rile up the markets......

 

[Jeremy Mason]

So true. Tomorrow isn't going to be pretty for a lot of people.......If there's anything that's a job killer or economy killer it's a government shutdown...especially a longterm shutdown. Then there's a whole ne fight that shouldn't even be a fight that's coming up and that's the debt ceiling. Messing with that will certainly rile up the markets......

Like you said, the whole spin game begins. Repub's will say Obama didn't compromise and visa versa. Mean while Americans are being pillaged by inflating prices, deflating cash supplies via wage inequalities. This is what happened in the stock market crash of 1929.
Wall Street Crash of 1929 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Dirty Penguin]

And this is exactly what I've been talking about all day....Democrats requested and begged for budget reconciliation months ago on the two opposing budgets and it was denied in both houses by republicans. We're 20 minutes away from a shutdown...and republicans realize they can't "defund", "delay" or add anything else to a CR that shouldn't be there in the first place...so NOW all of a sudden they want to intriduce legislation at the 11 and a half hour to go to conference to reconcile their budgets....REALLY.....What a dysfuntional lot these guys are. Pass the dang Clean CR and then go to conference. Keep the government functioning and work on a long term budget...Thisis all they need to do....sheesh!!!

 

[esmith]

So tonight the house voted to delay the individual mandate for one year and end the employer healthcare contribution for members of Congress and their staff. However the Senate voted to kill the two amendments. Way to go Harry, you just shut down the government by saying Congress is special when it comes to the ACA and telling the American public that big business is more important than individuals.

 

[s2a]

In a recent interview, Obama had this to say: “The problem we have is we have a faction of the Republican Party, in the House of Representatives in particular, that view “compromise” as a dirty word, and anything that is even remotely associated with me, they feel obliged to oppose.”

Seeing some posts on this forum, if they are any representation at all, it is clear that what Obama is saying is true. Agree or disagree?

I vote True" ")

 

[Dirty Penguin]

So tonight the house voted to delay the individual mandate for one year and end the employer healthcare contribution for members of Congress and their staff. However the Senate voted to kill the two amendments. Way to go Harry, you just shut down the government by saying Congress is special when it comes to the ACA and telling the American public that big business is more important than individuals.

If it were the complete truth I would agree but it isn't so I won't. Once again...what keeps getting glossed over by everyone is that over 6 months ago Democrats passed their budget and requested and begged to go to conference but Republicans in the Senate filibustered it repeatedly. Democrats in the House requested and begged Boehner to appoint conferees but he didn't

A CR is not a way to govern but be that as it may Democrats sent a Clean CR to the House. No gimicks, no hidden agenda, no pork...just straight funding to keep the government open so that they could request a conference to finally work on budget reconciliation.

And did I mention that Democrats compromised and agreed on the budget amount in the CR? Yes...they did. The Democrat's number was about 80 billion more and Republicans wanted it lower so Democrats agreed with the amounts the Republicans came up with. I think it might have been lower than the number in the Ryan budget.....Yet this wasn't good enough for Republicans.

Now that Republicans are unable to extort Democrats...so at the 11h hour they now want to enter legislation to go to conference.....Get the flarp out of here. Where was all this concern for going to conference for budget reconciliation 6 months ago....This shutdown by Republicans was planned and has been their plan since January.