Obama sends in 30000 troops to Afghanistan

[dogsgod]

So then why do you support the continuing prescence of Coalition troops over there, along with Obama's 30,000 additional troops to be deployed - providing he's serious about a successfull campaign?

Besides, the safety of the average American or Brit will not be improved by this war, no more than yours would as an Israeli.

Caladan condones violence as a means to an end.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi tumbleweed,

So, taking out our most expensive entitlement programs makes it that we spend more on defense than social programs.

That's not surprising, but why would you arbitrarily remove Social Security Medicare from our budget?

 

[tumbleweed41]

Hi tumbleweed,

So, taking out our most expensive entitlement programs makes it that we spend more on defense than social programs.

That's not surprising, but why would you arbitrarily remove Social Security Medicare from our budget?

Social security and medicare are collected through a separate tax (FICA, FICA-MED) and are not counted as part of the general tax income. This tax is intended for certain programs only.
General tax funds are spent as dictated by Congress.

 

[kai]

It's a great shame when you consider the selflessness of people, who believe their homeland is under attack, and they volunteer to risk their lives for others....... only for them to be manipulated into fighting, as you said, Political and Corporate wars.

I think it's a very dark sinister abuse of such honourable courage and willingness to defend others, and preserve one's society.

Where do you get the impression that soldiers lets say British soldiers in Afghanistan have volunteered because they think that their homeland is under attack?



British soldiers are volunteers yes, they are professional soldiers and they do their job wherever that may be . at the moment they are in Afghanistan as part of ISAF. It is under NATO's International Security Assistance Force that the British Armed Forces, along with the militaries of over 40 other nations, are deployed to Afghanistan. The Army is an arm of the poliical entity that is Britain and at the moment that arm is aiding the UN carry out operations in Afghanistan. If the UN is carrying out some kind of sinister abuse of those soldiers. please outline it for me.



you know whenever i debate people on Afghanistan i tend to get the impression that not many people take the time to find out hat the heck is and has been going on over there. please dont be another one.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi tumbleweed,

Social security and medicare are collected through a separate tax (FICA, FICA-MED) and are not counted as part of the general tax income. This tax is intended for certain programs only.
General tax funds are spent as dictated by Congress.

The way the money is collected is immaterial. Seyorni said we spend more money on defense than social programs. Since Social Security and Medicare are social programs controlled by Congress they would be included in money spent on social programs. And this is more than defense spending.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Hi tumbleweed,



The way the money is collected is immaterial. Seyorni said we spend more money on defense than social programs. Since Social Security and Medicare are social programs controlled by Congress they would be included in money spent on social programs. And this is more than defense spending.

Of course, when I see that FICA is taken from my checks, I assume it is spent on the well being of others.
When my Federal taxes are taken out, I find that a majority of it is spent on the War Machine.
But when combined, the social programs get more money.
I feel so much better now.

 

[Aquitaine]

Where do you get the impression that soldiers lets say British soldiers in Afghanistan have volunteered because they think that their homeland is under attack?

British soldiers are volunteers yes, they are professional soldiers and they do their job wherever that may be . at the moment they are in Afghanistan as part of ISAF. It is under NATO's International Security Assistance Force that the British Armed Forces, along with the militaries of over 40 other nations, are deployed to Afghanistan. The Army is an arm of the poliical entity that is Britain and at the moment that arm is aiding the UN carry out operations in Afghanistan. If the UN is carrying out some kind of sinister abuse of those soldiers. please outline it for me.



you know whenever i debate people on Afghanistan i tend to get the impression that not many people take the time to find out hat the heck is and has been going on over there. please dont be another one.

Well okay then allow me to clarify: the "abuse" I'm refering to is abuse of Soldier's willingness to do what the average Joe Public is too scared to do - to go fight a war for the country. This isn't just with UK soldiers in Afghanistan, but soldiers everywhere. Just like Vietnam, what did that acomplish? Nothing. But it costed so many brave lives, of people who were told it was crucial for their country etc.

In the UK now, as with the Iraq war, the war in Afghanistan is being "justified" by the whole "OMFG TERRORISTS" crap. We've already had one major terrorist attack on our soil recently, and our Government along with Brown, are constantly telling us it's for security, to keep us and others safe from Terrorism.

Bull.

Brown doesn't even like the military, he doesn't even know how it functions, he seems to think a Military functions better when it's budget is constantly being reduced.

The same guy who couldn't even be arsed to spell-check his "letter of condolensce" to one of the troops. Whilst the MoD are ordering US-rejected vehicles (for safety reasons) and the wrong trucks, and letting our boys patrol in Landrover Defenders!

Sometimes we get phases where we continuously loose one soldier per day, and all muppet Brown does is produce another speech of how this war in Afghanistan is so important to our safety, and the safety of others.

Meanwhile the UK is suffering major deterioration of it's domestic systems, from stupid Governmen policies and poor leadership.

I may not know every single detail about Afghanistan, and I may not know as much about it as you do Kai, but I atleast know that it's a pointless war that even if we could win it, it wouldn't positively affect the average Brit in the least way possible, and will just cost more lives, more equipment, more money.

EDIT: Here's another thing, I've just seen an interview on SKY News with Gordon Brown talking on the loss of another Soldier, and he said: "....an that people will remember the reason why we're in Afghanistan: to ensure that Al-Quaeda never get the opportunity to terrorise us on the streets of Britain".

We're being lied to, and being told that without this war, Terrorists will attack us on our streets.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

War honestly makes me want to cry, and often it succeeds in that. The link of security to the need to kill is one of the most upsetting delusions humanity is unfortunate enough to still believe in.

 

[kai]

Well okay then allow me to clarify: the "abuse" I'm refering to is abuse of Soldier's willingness to do what the average Joe Public is too scared to do - to go fight a war for the country. This isn't just with UK soldiers in Afghanistan, but soldiers everywhere. Just like Vietnam, what did that acomplish? Nothing. But it costed so many brave lives, of people who were told it was crucial for their country etc.

you know what ?soldiers just soldier. Vietnam again?

In the UK now, as with the Iraq war, the war in Afghanistan is being "justified" by the whole "OMFG TERRORISTS" crap. We've already had one major terrorist attack on our soil recently, and our Government along with Brown, are constantly telling us it's for security, to keep us and others safe from Terrorism.

and?

Bull.

and you base that on ?

Brown doesn't even like the military, he doesn't even know how it functions, he seems to think a Military functions better when it's budget is constantly being reduced.

politicians never do, their not soldiers.

The same guy who couldn't even be arsed to spell-check his "letter of condolensce" to one of the troops. Whilst the MoD are ordering US-rejected vehicles (for safety reasons) and the wrong trucks, and letting our boys patrol in Landrover Defenders!

yep thats him.

Sometimes we get phases where we continuously loose one soldier per day, and all muppet Brown does is produce another speech of how this war in Afghanistan is so important to our safety, and the safety of others.
Yes?
Meanwhile the UK is suffering major deterioration of it's domestic systems, from stupid Governmen policies and poor leadership. Yes?

I may not know every single detail about Afghanistan, and I may not know as much about it as you do Kai, but I atleast know that it's a pointless war that even if we could win it, it wouldn't positively affect the average Brit in the least way possible, and will just cost more lives, more equipment, more money.


and you base that conclusion on ?

EDIT: Here's another thing, I've just seen an interview on SKY News with Gordon Brown talking on the loss of another Soldier, and he said: "....an that people will remember the reason why we're in Afghanistan: to ensure that Al-Quaeda never get the opportunity to terrorise us on the streets of Britain".

We're being lied to, and being told that without this war, Terrorists will attack us on our streets.

look you are in a war right now this minute. and its because of the security forces on the mainland and abroad that keep attacks in Britain to a minimum. we see attacks foiled on a regular basis and that's without Afghanistan offering safe haven and training camps, which is what British troops are doing right now preventing the reintroduction of a regime that allowed the training and operation of terrorist attacks against the west. and they are going to attack us on the streets now and until the ideology of Alqueda and its allies is either thwarted or surrendered to. If you would like to see an Afghanistan return to its Taliban Alqueda heyday then pull out the troops now. we can all watch the people that want to kill you and me training on google earth.

 

[darkendless]

To the OP:

None of us should be there. They shoot at our soldiers trying to protect them and their freedom.

**** them, we shouldn't be hearing about our soldiers dying for a bunch of ingrates who don't trust us, while their "muslim brothers" whinge and whine about how attrocious our troops are.

They do not deserve our support at all!

 

[Aquitaine]

look you are in a war right now this minute. and its because of the security forces on the mainland and abroad that keep attacks in Britain to a minimum. we see attacks foiled on a regular basis and that's without Afghanistan offering safe haven and training camps, which is what British troops are doing right now preventing the reintroduction of a regime that allowed the training and operation of terrorist attacks against the west. and they are going to attack us on the streets now and until the ideology of Alqueda and its allies is either thwarted or surrendered to. If you would like to see an Afghanistan return to its Taliban Alqueda heyday then pull out the troops now. we can all watch the people that want to kill you and me training on google earth.

Yes, just like we prevented 7/7.

If anything, this war (along with Iraq) appears to have made relations between the West and the Muslim World worse.

Also, do you really think that Afghanistan is the only place on the planet that harbours extremists and people who want kill us? There's tons of training camps and terrorist activity in Pakistan too, so shall we go bomb them and send more boys and girls over in Land Rover Defenders, and waste millions more on flat-hulled Huskys?

We could never stabilize Afghanistan, without doing the same in Pakistan, Iraq etc. Terrorists arn't isolationists; they expand, and migrate, and create networks.

You wanna make Britain safe? Okay then, let's divert our attention towards Border Control, National Security, Police Force etc.

End of the day, how many Britains have been killed by Terrorists from Afghanistan in the last 10 years?

Now how many Britains have been killed by British Civilians in the last 10 years?

Now how many British Civilians have been killed by drug abuses/drug-related incidents in the last 10 years?

Now, how many British Civilians have been killed by Cancer and other diseases in the last 10 years?

If your only justification for the Afghanistan War is for the safety of British Civilians, then you have got your priorities totally wrong.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Caladan condones violence as a means to an end.

I'm not saying this applies to Afghanistan, but do you believe in total pacifism? Do you think that America should have been involved in WW2?

 

[dogsgod]

To the OP:

None of us should be there. They shoot at our soldiers trying to protect them and their freedom.

LOL, Protect them and their freedom? We're the Nazis, we're the invaders and occupiers there to take what we want.

**** them, we shouldn't be hearing about our soldiers dying for a bunch of ingrates who don't trust us, while their "muslim brothers" whinge and whine about how attrocious our troops are.

They do not deserve our support at all!

Yeah, that's it, we're there to support them, yeah, that's the ticket, we want them to be supported, we're the good guys, yeah, that's it, we're the good guys.

 

[dogsgod]

I'm not saying this applies to Afghanistan, but do you believe in total pacifism? Do you think that America should have been involved in WW2?

Do you think America should be invading and occupying as did the Nazis in WWII? Do you believe US propaganda? Do you believe Israel should be taking land from Palestinians and walling them in?

 

[darkendless]

LOL, Protect them and their freedom? We're the Nazis, we're the invaders and occupiers there to take what we want.

Yeah, that's it, we're there to support them, yeah, that's the ticket, we want them to be supported, we're the good guys, yeah, that's it, we're the good guys.

Well i don't know about Americans, but my soldiers are protecting contractors who are providing basic services to communitites.

If that warrants Australian troops being shot at, i say let the locals fend for themselves.

If we're the Nazi's then **** them all. If they don't want our help, we have more pressing matters to attend to.

 

[kai]

Yes, just like we prevented 7/7. No thats one we were unable to prevent.

If anything, this war (along with Iraq) appears to have made relations between the West and the Muslim World worse. do you think so ? how much worse? really in real terms how worse is it?

Also, do you really think that Afghanistan is the only place on the planet that harbours extremists and people who want kill us? There's tons of training camps and terrorist activity in Pakistan too, so shall we go bomb them and send more boys and girls over in Land Rover Defenders, and waste millions more on flat-hulled Huskys?

No ! you are aware of the Pakistani offensive against the Taliban?

We could never stabilize Afghanistan, without doing the same in Pakistan, Iraq etc. Terrorists arn't isolationists; they expand, and migrate, and create networks.
isnt that what we are doing? and yes you are right. But give them a freindly country to set up in and theres no need to skulk in the shadows.
You wanna make Britain safe? Okay then, let's divert our attention towards Border Control, National Security, Police Force etc. But you know that the threat is mainly from home grown Islamic fundamentalists don't you , People that are influenced by the ideology of Alqueda our borders are pretty well protected.

End of the day, how many Britains have been killed by Terrorists from Afghanistan in the last 10 years?
thats a silly question isnt it. The organisation that spreads the ideology of the destruction of your way of life was based in Afghanistan . you do know that?

Now how many Britains have been killed by British Civilians in the last 10 years? are you attempting to debate law and order in the UK now or Islamic fundamentalism in the UK

Now how many British Civilians have been killed by drug abuses/drug-related incidents in the last 10 years?

Drugs? do you want to open another thread?

Now, how many British Civilians have been killed by Cancer and other diseases in the last 10 years?

again what do you want to discuss? medical care in the UK?

If your only justification for the Afghanistan War is for the safety of British Civilians, then you have got your priorities totally wrong.

and you , like i thought have very little to add to any debate on Afghanistan.

I thought you wanted to discuss the Problem of the spread of Quitibism style ideology amongst Islamic fundamentalists but i was wrong.

 

[idea]

There isno poll option for my pov... IMO it is a no win situation. Darned if you do, darned if you don't. I'm just glad I'm not the pres. Between a rock and a hard place.

 

[kai]

LOL, Protect them and their freedom? We're the Nazis, we're the invaders and occupiers there to take what we want.

what are we taking ?

Yeah, that's it, we're there to support them, yeah, that's the ticket, we want them to be supported, we're the good guys, yeah, that's it, we're the good guys.

why dont you outline for us what you think we are doing there.you obviously dissagree with the UN position so lets have your take on it.

 

[kai]

Do you think America should be invading and occupying as did the Nazis in WWII? Do you believe US propaganda? Do you believe Israel should be taking land from Palestinians and walling them in?

you compare the US to the Nazis? i don't know whether to laugh or despair at some peoples total ignorance to what has gone on in the world and what is going on.

why dont you give us a brief outline of the similarities in regimes and i am sure you can contribute to the Israeli Palestinian threads elsewhere on the forum theres a few about.

 

[Valjean]

This whole brouhaha started cause we were "over there." America's an Empire with hundreds of foreign military bases throughout the world. It's our foreign policy (PNAC) to create a pax americana and control the entire planet. 9/11 happened, for example, because we appeared to be expanding our occupation of Saudi Arabia.

If we left the rest of the world alone and tended to our own affairs the "terrorists" would have no beef with us. They'd lay down their arms and tend their own gardens.

We keep poking at hornets nests and wondering why we keep getting stung.