Objective Reality

[Dawnofhope]

1): Do what you know is good for you + refrain "thinking to know what is good for others". They will tell you if needing your input.
2): If one could be more empathetic would create more love in the world. Be more humble, realizing "I am not as big as my ego"

I agree.

We all need to read the reality of our own lives, assess what works best for us, and live by our highest principles.

What works for you may not work for me. Its certainly not a one size fits all when it comes to faith.

 

[stvdv]

I agree.
We all need to read the reality of our own lives, assess what works best for us, and live by our highest principles.
What works for you may not work for me. Its certainly not a one size fits all when it comes to faith.

Well said. One of the first posts I read on RF was from @Trackdayguy: "what works for me...". I see you also use it. I found this one very practical to use.
Also a nice example showing us how much impact we do have with our words. Positive words can change the world.

First coming here, I had no clue there were hundreds of different religions and denominations. So had to google in the beginning almost every reply, because it seems all had different religion. What struck me with Google was that Google showed only very nice and positive definitions of the specific religions [or I coincidentally selected the positive every time; like 50 times in a row].

Reading the positive definition, recognizing their nice values every time I thought "Yes that makes sense, very nice religion/denomination". Made me happy.

Its certainly not a one size fits all when it comes to faith

 

[joe1776]

Often peoples of different faiths or no faith find themselves so enmeshed in their worldview they struggle to empathise with others who hold apparently contradictory views . How can we better appreciate how peoples of one ideology have reached very different conclusions about the nature of reality to ourselves?

I hear people advise others that they should respect the beliefs of others. That's not necessary or even possible. Beliefs are either right or wrong, correct or incorrect. We can't respect beliefs we think are wrong.

We can, however, debate someone we think is mistaken and show them respect while doing it.

 

[stvdv]

I hear people advise others that they should respect the beliefs of others. That's not necessary or even possible. Beliefs are either right or wrong, correct or incorrect. We can't respect beliefs we think are wrong.

We can, however, debate someone we think is mistaken and show them respect while doing it.

In Holland we have a Law "freedom of religion". I believe this is good. I believe this implies "respect belief others"

Respect means "do not demean others' religion". The Law is not about "True or false Religion" it's about "freedom". It's personal anyway.
If a child is happy with it's toy, why take his happiness away, just to proof "you know the truth" makes no sense to me, unless child likes that.

Of course "if you are free to believe" so are others. So all should respect = not demean [do not talk negative about religion]

I believe we should respect the Law. Implies respect Law of other countries also when visiting. We can't force our food through their throat.

So respect does not mean "accept as true", rather "let the child be happy with it [if you believe yours is a superior truth]".

 

[Dawnofhope]

Well said. One of the first posts I read on RF was from @Trackdayguy: "what works for me...". I see you also use it. I found this one very practical to use.
Also a nice example showing us how much impact we do have with our words. Positive words can change the world.

First coming here, I had no clue there were hundreds of different religions and denominations. So had to google in the beginning almost every reply, because it seems all had different religion. What struck me with Google was that Google showed only very nice and positive definitions of the specific religions [or I coincidentally selected the positive every time; like 50 times in a row].

Reading the positive definition, recognizing their nice values every time I thought "Yes that makes sense, very nice religion/denomination". Made me happy.

Its certainly not a one size fits all when it comes to faith

The main reason I'm here is to learn about other faiths but also to better understand why people have the different beliefs they do. Its nice to chatting to people all round the world too. I've had to respond to questions and misunderstandings people have about religion too including the Baha'i Faith.

The way we use language is very important and can change the world as you say.

I hadn't come across 'sanatana dharma' before so that's something new for me today. We you born into Hinduism or come to it later in life? Hope you don't mind me asking.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I hear people advise others that they should respect the beliefs of others. That's not necessary or even possible. Beliefs are either right or wrong, correct or incorrect. We can't respect beliefs we think are wrong.

We can, however, debate someone we think is mistaken and show them respect while doing it.

That's a very black and white view of the universe. Sometimes it is useful to be clear about what is right and wrong and cut through all the nonsense. It can also be a sign of religious or non-religious fundamentalism.

 

[stvdv]

The main reason I'm here is to learn about other faiths but also to better understand why people have the different beliefs they do. Its nice to chatting to people all round the world too. I've had to respond to questions and misunderstandings people have about religion too including the Baha'i Faith.

The way we use language is very important and can change the world as you say.

I hadn't come across 'sanatana dharma' before so that's something new for me today. We you born into Hinduism or come to it later in life? Hope you don't mind me asking.

I came to RF because my Master said "it's good learn about other Belief Systems/cultures, because then you understand, and you won't judge as quick".
This really makes sense, and it did work this way for me. All religions and humanism/atheism have good values in them, I can learn from.

I was born Christian, and at age 10 I told my mother "It feels not good that you judge others' religions. And if Jesus is on earth, I'll go and see Him. Lateron I loved non-violence as I learned from Buddhism. Few years later I read Koran, Bible, Bhagavad Gita while travelling around the world. Few years later I went to India, met my Master and there ended my search. Now I just need practice, to unlearn bad habits/mind etc. And I believe when "dirt" is out, truth will reveil itself. No need to search for thuth, it's hidden inside behind all "funny" mental webs that slowly solve now.

I visited recently a few times Bahai meetings in Holland. I read The Book of Bahau'llah. And recognized many teaching I learned in India. Especially embracing other religions and Belief Systems. I read in Bahau'llah's book we should not judge other Religions [same as my Master told me], which I like very much and didn't find much in the big Religions. Now on RF I see that some, for me new Religions, also embrace this idea.

I also met Mother Meera [Indian Saint] a few times, and She also teaches "World Peace is only possible if the Religious people stop judging others' Religion". And I met Mother Amma, another Indian Saint I had good experience with. Nice to see that my "words to my mother" has been woven throughout my whole life. I do not believe in coincidence any more.

That was in short my main story.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I came to RF because my Master said "it's good learn about other Belief Systems/cultures, because then you understand, and you won't judge as quick".
This really makes sense, and it did work this way for me. All religions and humanism/atheism have good values in them, I can learn from.

I was born Christian, and at age 10 I told my mother "It feels not good that you judge others' religions. And if Jesus is on earth, I'll go and see Him. Lateron I loved non-violence as I learned from Buddhism. Few years later I read Koran, Bible, Bhagavad Gita while travelling around the world. Few years later I went to India, met my Master and there ended my search. Now I just need practice, to unlearn bad habits/mind etc. And I believe when "dirt" is out, truth will reveil itself. No need to search for thuth, it's hidden inside behind all "funny" mental webs that slowly solve now.

I visited recently a few times Bahai meetings in Holland. I read The Book of Bahau'llah. And recognized many teaching I learned in India. Especially embracing other religions and Belief Systems. I read in Bahau'llah's book we should not judge other Religions [same as my Master told me], which I like very much and didn't find much in the big Religions. Now on RF I see that some, for me new Religions, also embrace this idea.

I also met Mother Meera [Indian Saint] a few times, and She also teaches "World Peace is only possible if the Religious people stop judging others' Religion". And I met Mother Amma, another Indian Saint I had good experience with. Nice to see that my "words to my mother" has been woven throughout my whole life. I do not believe in coincidence any more.

That was in short my main story.

What an excellent story. Thank you.

My story has some similarities. I too grew up Christian and lke many teenagers my age religion wasn't so important. When I explored religion again in my early 20s I naturally returned to my Christian roots but was dismayed at the negative attitude towards other religions I found. I searched for the truth and that led me to the Baha'i Faith. I was initially attracted to teachings about the oneness of religion. Baha'u'llah and His Eldest son Abdu'l-Baha are my Teachers though they have both passed from this world. Their Teachings are to associate with peoples of all faiths in a spirit of love and fellowship. I'm also trying to better rise above my negative attributes and the Baha'i practices of prayer, meditation, and study help. The goal of any Baha'i is to work towards bringing about peace in the world. As you know to be any genuine agent of change we need to strive each day to be the best we can.

Its so nice to meet you.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

(1) How can we know?
(2) Should we be more empathetic towards those who view life differently from ourselves? If so, how?

(1) About the spiritual, no one can truly know. Our brains prove themselves capable of deceiving us on so many levels... and still there are some who are absolutely sure that the "[still/small/loud/thundering] voice(s)" is communicating with them.
(2) I'm not sure it matters how anyone views life. We all get our shake at it, and there is every reason to tolerate those around you. But there is also every reason to continue to question. We all get one another to think, question, reformulate and hone our personal ideas. This is a GOOD thing. A lot of people like to label such questioning as "attack." And toward those types of people my feelings turn from empathy to sympathy.

 

[Looncall]

(1) About the spiritual, no one can truly know. Our brains prove themselves capable of deceiving us on so many levels... and still there are some who are absolutely sure that the "[still/small/loud/thundering] voice(s)" is communicating with them.
(2) I'm not sure it matters how anyone views life. We all get our shake at it, and there is every reason to tolerate those around you. But there is also every reason to continue to question. We all get one another to think, question, reformulate and hone our personal ideas. This is a GOOD thing. A lot of people like to label such questioning as "attack." And toward those types of people my feelings turn from empathy to sympathy.

Very nice. However, what does one do about scams and their victims?

 

[stvdv]

(1) About the spiritual, no one can truly know. Our brains prove themselves capable of deceiving us on so many levels... and still there are some who are absolutely sure that the "[still/small/loud/thundering] voice(s)" is communicating with them.
(2) I'm not sure it matters how anyone views life. We all get our shake at it, and there is every reason to tolerate those around you. But there is also every reason to continue to question. We all get one another to think, question, reformulate and hone our personal ideas. This is a GOOD thing. A lot of people like to label such questioning as "attack." And toward those types of people my feelings turn from empathy to sympathy.

Very nice, thanks. Many points I recognize in my life. If God exists He truly know, no one else [as per definition "omni etcetera"]. If God does not exist we also don't know [as per limited brain in this vast universe]. So I believe we can't know for sure. Personal guess at best.

Brain deceives us. Or more accurate "mind = bundle of thoughts" deceive us. I have sometimes dreams, sometimes visions. To interpret is hard, because mind is not "empty". Same with voices. The more clean the sense input, the more clean the astral information.

Because of insecurity and being a pleaser I let people walk over my borders [I didn't have any]. Naturally I felt "under attack" all the time. Good reminder you bring this up; it's getting better the more I practice and stay aware. Good you feel sympathy for those in this learning process.

 

[stvdv]

Very nice. However, what does one do about scams and their victims?

It's all about "supply and demand". If there are fools letting themselves be scammed, scammers will be there"

It's all about purification body, mind, senses. The more pure you are the less you want to scam others or get a victim of it.
So education and practice will solve these. Takes time, maybe it is a continuous process. And earth is just a learning school.

 

[joe1776]

That's a very black and white view of the universe. Sometimes it is useful to be clear about what is right and wrong and cut through all the nonsense. It can also be a sign of religious or non-religious fundamentalism.

My comment didn't offer my view of the universe. It offered my view of Truth -- and claims of truth are true or false. Black or white. Are they not?

The sign on the forum door reads "Religion Debates." Debates are about differences of opinion. They're healthy when we can disagree yet come away with a mutual respect.

 

[blü 2]

How do we know our take on the universe is any better than anyone else?

We don't, in any ultimate sense.

But we can take our views for a gallop on RF and see how many times we get knocked over. That will give some indication, though an indication under very particular circumstances.

(1) How can we know?

I attempt to solve that one by my three assumptions. (They have to be assumptions because I can't begin to demonstrate their correctness without having first assumed they're correct.)

That a world exists external to the self.
That the senses are capable of sufficiently informing the self about that world.
That reason is a valid tool.​

Those who post on RF thereby demonstrate that they already share the first two assumptions, and I hope they share the third.

So in my view, on the basis of those assumptions, we know because there's a world external to the self, our senses can sufficiently inform us about it, and we can validly use reason to find out about it.

That external world is objective reality. As for 'truth', a statement is true if it accurately reflects / corresponds to / conforms with, objective reality.

Should we be more empathetic towards those who view life differently from ourselves? If so, how?

At the dinner table, in the bar, in public, we should endeavor to maximize respect between people, stay away from unnecessary argument, and be good friends and citizens.

On RF, well, if we don't argue, we'll never learn, and worse, we'll never have any fun.

 

[joe1776]

In Holland we have a Law "freedom of religion". I believe this is good. I believe this implies "respect belief others"

Respect means "do not demean others' religion". The Law is not about "True or false Religion" it's about "freedom". It's personal anyway.
If a child is happy with it's toy, why take his happiness away, just to proof "you know the truth" makes no sense to me, unless child likes that.

Of course "if you are free to believe" so are others. So all should respect = not demean [do not talk negative about religion]

I believe we should respect the Law. Implies respect Law of other countries also when visiting. We can't force our food through their throat.

So respect does not mean "accept as true", rather "let the child be happy with it [if you believe yours is a superior truth]".

I won't debate what your country's law is about; yet I suspect some of your countrymen would. We agree that we should not "demean" the beliefs of others. But, when people come into a forum like this, where the purpose is to debate religion, we are not demeaning their beliefs when we offer reasons that they are mistaken.

In this context, to say that we should respect the beliefs of others is simply a poor choice of words. I respect people who are kind regardless of their beliefs. Agreeing with me is not a requirement.

 

[joe1776]

The goal of any Baha'i is to work towards bringing about peace in the world.

I authored a thread recently that might interest you. It's entitled Global Harmony is Inevitable. However, although I applaud the goals of your religion, I can't see religion as the tool to get the Global Harmony job done because religion's sole, undeniable achievement has been the division of humanity into thousands of quarreling sects. Consequently, religion seems like more of an obstacle to be avoided in humanity's path to harmony.

Global Harmony is Inevitable

 

[robocop (actually)]

Actually, "love doesn't require thought" - Rael so just love everybody like your religion says and you will be connected.

 

[ChristineM]

Often peoples of different faiths or no faith find themselves so enmeshed in their worldview they struggle to empathise with others who hold apparently contradictory views . How can we better appreciate how peoples of one ideology have reached very different conclusions about the nature of reality to ourselves?

Sometimes on RF it can feel like some live in intellectual silos, disconnected from those who believe differently from ourselves and unable to understand why others have reached very different conclusions about the nature of reality. Is this a common experience for many of us?

How is it that we arrive at these varied conclusions and by what measure do we determine what is true or false, right or wrong? How do we know our take on the universe is any better than anyone else?

In summary:

(1) How can we know?

(2) Should we be more empathetic towards those who view life differently from ourselves? If so, how?

1. If a persons opinion contradicts definition then we know

2. If a persons opinion contradicts definition then surely it is up to that person to review the definition and either a/ use a different wording so not to cause confusion or b/ revise their opinion in light of their new knowledge.

A third option c/ would be simply to accept that person is misusing a general definition and bury your head in the sand.

 

[David1967]

How can we better appreciate how peoples of one ideology have reached very different conclusions about the nature of reality to ourselves?

My approach is to first get to know them as a person and possible friend. Its much easier to appreciate a persons differing thoughts or ideologies if I do this.

 

[David T]

1): Do what you know is good for you + refrain "thinking to know what is good for others". They will tell you if needing your input.
2): If one could be more empathetic it would create more love in the world. Be more humble, realizing "I am not as big as my ego"

The trick with empathy, and most artists struggle with this l, is how to be empathetic without being pulled over the cliff.