Occultism

[blackout]

Another hint:
As soon as you begin insisting that a particular vocabulary--
or more precicely, that the vocabulary of a particular paradigm--
defines, explains, labels, owns those experiences that transcend paradigm,
you have I'dol'ized the transcendent.
You have relegated
to your own certain terms,
that which is beyond language.

You have brought the sacred down to the mundane,
and then lifted it up
as a piece of statuary.

 

[Student of X]

Thank you UV, you are quite right. As a student of comparative mythology I am accustomed to paradigm shifting. But, one step at a time for our friend and OP, InChrist.

 

[blackout]

Thank you UV, you are quite right. As a student of comparative mythology I am accustomed to paradigm shifting. But, one step at a time for our friend and OP, InChrist.

No need to smear the preferred vocabularies of others in the process though.

Sorcerers are not thieves any more than mystics are thieves.

THIEVES ... are thieves.

capiche?:flirt:

 

[Student of X]

No need to smear the preferred vocabularies of others in the process though.

Sorcerers are not thieves any more than mystics are thieves.

THIEVES ... are thieves.

capiche?:flirt:

If I've offended you, I'm sorry.

Go far enough back in time, and you come to a primordial tribal shaman who was initiated by a tribal Divine agency. Trained, by that agency, to use his powers to provide care for his or her tribe. Healing, remote viewing, divination, exorcism, etc.

At some point in time a shaman shirked his duty to his tribe and used his or her knowledge and abilities for personal ambition and power, and then the first sorcerer was born. Sorcerers inherit a stolen legacy of sacred knowledge, imo.

 

[blackout]

I See that the... more 'telling'... dividing line lies between Love and Duty.

Not between duty and ambition.

As I said before, if someone is ACTUALLY stealing from others,
call him a thief.
Not a sorcerer.
If you made an epithet of the word "witch",
do you think that would be a fair charicterization of all, most, or even many Wiccans?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Occult means something covered or concealed from view. Occultism is the belief in or study of the action or influence of supernatural powers and the practice of gaining hidden knowledge.



According to God’s revelation in the biblical scriptures there are only two sources of knowledge, information, and spiritual or supernatural aid available for humans. One may seek answers and aid from the Creator of heaven and earth or through various avenues or occultism all of which lead to Satan. The scriptures forbid humans from contact or seeking information or power from sources other than God the Creator Himself because Satan is always ready to accommodate those who seek wisdom, understanding, or power apart from the true God, with counterfeit information and substitutes for the truth.



The Creator wanted Adam and Eve, Israel in the OT and wants humans today to attain knowledge, not through listening to another, self-discovery, or any other method, but through accurate revelation given by Him to His creation. All methods of seeking to unveil hidden knowledge, ascertain future events, uncover secret wisdom, or exercise supernatural power outside of God’s revelation are all forms of occultism and are condemned as sorcery by God in the scriptures, for good reason. They are dangerous and open one to the lies, deception, bondage and control of Satan.

How many people in the world today having no desire for God's revelation have already been involved with occultism in some way?

This is your belief, and that's fine. Just remember that there are people who would disagree with you, and it's fine that they have their belief. Just make sure you don't attempt to forcefully impose this belief on people who don't want it. I personally don't practice occultism, but I have studied it in depth, and find that it has interesting ideas, and I'm fine with people who practice it. So I would disagree with you on your biblical analysis of the subject.

 

[Student of X]

I See that the... more 'telling'... dividing line lies between Love and Duty.

Not between duty and ambition.

As I said before, if someone is ACTUALLY stealing from others,
call him a thief.
Not a sorcerer.

I've had a bit of experience fighting sorcerers in the 'Pleroma'. It's a good feeling freeing the soul fragments they've stolen from people over the years and over the tears. Soul-loss is rampant in the modern age, I tell ya!

Can I ask you a question, UV? What would you say are the differences between sorcerers, mystics, witches, and Wiccans?

 

[blackout]

I've had a bit of experience fighting sorcerers in the 'Pleroma'. It's a good feeling freeing the soul fragments they've stolen from people over the years and over the tears. Soul-loss is rampant in the modern age, I tell ya!

Can I ask you a question, UV? What would you say are the differences between sorcerers, mystics, witches, and Wiccans?

Short (and most accurate) answer,
the meanings of these words are as unique and varried
as the many individuals who use and define them.

 

[Student of X]

Short (and most accurate) answer,
the meanings of these words are as unique and varried
as the many individuals who use and define them.

But why do they use them? Because they are cool words?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Student of X, a quick question, if you'll be so kind to answer it: do you believe that all occultists are sorcerers, and that all sorcerers are occultists?

 

[blackout]

I've had a bit of experience fighting sorcerers in the 'Pleroma'. It's a good feeling freeing the soul fragments they've stolen from people over the years and over the tears. Soul-loss is rampant in the modern age, I tell ya!

Can I ask you a question, UV? What would you say are the differences between sorcerers, mystics, witches, and Wiccans?

now if you want my own personal take...

Sorcerers are both See'rs(See'ers) and (*Chaos type)Magicians.
(*as in 'active in Reality deconstruction and reconstruction')

Mystics are primarily Seer's (/experiencers).
Meditation forms come to mind, and inner healing practices.
Depending on their particular religious/non-religious bent,
they are sometimes also other things.

Witches practice both Divination(ie, are See'ers)
and Magic, though their form of Magic is usually
more of a Nature based Magic.

Wiccans are a subset of Witches,
or... they are a particular 'type' or sect? of witches,
with certain shared practicices/beliefs/philosophies... etc...

This all off the top of my head.

I don't like generalizing much,
but more pointing to tendencies.

It is quite possible to be Sorcerer, Mystic and Witch.
In my mind,
they are all VERY (and even necessarily) interrelated.
ie, they tend to 'come together'.

 

[blackout]

But why do they use them? Because they are cool words?

Why do you use them?

 

[InChrist]

This is your belief, and that's fine. Just remember that there are people who would disagree with you, and it's fine that they have their belief. Just make sure you don't attempt to forcefully impose this belief on people who don't want it. I personally don't practice occultism, but I have studied it in depth, and find that it has interesting ideas, and I'm fine with people who practice it. So I would disagree with you on your biblical analysis of the subject.

Yes, this is my belief and I believe it to be accurate because it is the revealed word of God, which was given for warning and protection of humanity. But you are right, not everyone agrees. I certainly have no desire or ability to forcefully impose this belief on others. Personally,I have realized the danger of seeking spiritual insights apart from God in my own life and I've seen the destruction it has brought to others. I'm just expressing this reality, but you or anyone else are free to disagree.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Hidden knowledge usually refers to paranormal knowledge, such as that gained from a divination system, or to an esoteric exegesis, or to Heavenly secrets that are shared with a mystic during an ecstasy.

My point was, that hidden only remains hidden until it is discovered. Up until a certain point, atoms were hidden. And later quarks were hidden and unknown. Gravity remains mostly a mystery and in the dark for now. Magic is only what science has yet to explain. There is no "para"normal or "super"natural as every thing that occurs within this universe is just as normal and as natural as you and I. We know that such things like fire, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, and other natural disasters aren't much of a mystery or have hidden sources anymore, but we know fire is the result of chemical reactions, earthquakes are the result of plate tectonic movements which also tend to cause volcanic eruptions and other natural disasters, and that rain is the result of built up moisture in the atmosphere. All of which was hidden, and some things which still have yet to be seen (such as any layer of earth deeper than the crust), and one day the hidden will no longer be hidden.

Go far enough back in time, and you come to a primordial tribal shaman who was initiated by a tribal Divine agency. Trained, by that agency, to use his powers to provide care for his or her tribe. Healing, remote viewing, divination, exorcism, etc.

At some point in time a shaman shirked his duty to his tribe and used his or her knowledge and abilities for personal ambition and power, and then the first sorcerer was born. Sorcerers inherit a stolen legacy of sacred knowledge, imo.

I would be very careful about using what we call shamans as an example, as they are often very aware of the fact they are but putting on a show, such as throwing their voices and claiming it is the spirits that are communicating. And they are also usually very aware that by doing this is serves a community need and helps in aiding the sense of community and also helps to establish there position within the given society. Now this of itself opens up a debate of its own, but what you are describing fits more along the definition of a warlock, or what is also known as an oath breaker, as such people are often also usually believing they are indeed exercising powers of forces beyond our physical ability to see, comprehend, and understand.

But why do they use them? Because they are cool words?

Linguistic relativity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm just expressing this reality, but you or anyone else are free to disagree.

But how do you know it is reality? Anyone, regardless of finding or loosing faith, will be subjected to a variety of psychological and physiological processes that will tend to make an individual interpret their own personal reality as the ultimate reality. Such as the tendency for people to actually feel better about a newly ascribed life-style, which is due to the general rule of thumb that people A) tend to justify their acts to make them look good, B) justify their efforts as to avoid making their efforts seem like a waste, and C) to maintain and uphold a positive self-image which also leads to the believe in a just world and that nothing bad can ever happen to them.
What you would call reality, people like me call an individualistic interpretation of their environment and settings in an attempt to make sense of and understand their world, regardless of if there interpretations are actually accurate or not.

 

[InChrist]

But how do you know it is reality? Anyone, regardless of finding or loosing faith, will be subjected to a variety of psychological and physiological processes that will tend to make an individual interpret their own personal reality as the ultimate reality. Such as the tendency for people to actually feel better about a newly ascribed life-style, which is due to the general rule of thumb that people A) tend to justify their acts to make them look good, B) justify their efforts as to avoid making their efforts seem like a waste, and C) to maintain and uphold a positive self-image which also leads to the believe in a just world and that nothing bad can ever happen to them.
What you would call reality, people like me call an individualistic interpretation of their environment and settings in an attempt to make sense of and understand their world, regardless of if there interpretations are actually accurate or not.

I understand what you are saying and that is the reason I accept God's revealed word as objective reality because human realities and understanding can vary so much depending on different factors. As I have said this is what I believe, but I realize you and others may disagree.

 

[elmarna]

This hidden knowledge in which God supports is like a Lneed to know " basis.
If he/she is wamting you to have this it will be given with no effort , other than your devoutness! It is called upon to the higher good and not likely without a resource to help mankind.
The most recent "revelation" I have seen expressed by him is the want that humanity turns to the positive thinking and a better way to support the world in which so much good can come of it. I am seeing more and more finding this message.
It is all up to us to be willing to do this!!!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I understand what you are saying and that is the reason I accept God's revealed word as objective reality because human realities and understanding can vary so much depending on different factors. As I have said this is what I believe, but I realize you and others may disagree.

But with practically no evidence to support the Bible, how can you say it is objective? We have no evidence of a global flood, we know various cultures separated by great oceans have independently developed their own languages, we know once biological functioning has ceased that even bones do not stand much of a chance to last and decay occurs very rapidly, we know there is no evidence for the Exodus, and we know that certain psychedelic drugs and mental disorders can cause what most would call a religious experience. We know that when prayer is put to the test it doesn't work, we know that genetic mutations can eventually give rise to new species, we know the earth is billions of years old (but that is a very weak argument since the Bible not once states the age of the earth or universe), and we know today (actually the ancient Greeks knew this) the earth is not flat or fixed in it's position. We know having sex with a woman who is on her period is not any less sanitary than when she is not menstruating and she is far from unclean, we have a general mutual agreement that people should not be bought with money, the fossil record does not agree with Genesis on what life forms came first and then later (another weak point I'll admit), and we know the book of Revelations was probably not prophecy but a coded message to Christians and churches of that era. We also know, largely due to haste and threat of a death sentence, as well as people who weren't as good as they thought, the English Bible is a very terrible translation. We know that a Caucasian with the name of Jesus is VERY out of place for the time and setting (this one depends on individuals and their specific denominations), we know the Arc was just too small for two of every species on this planet (not to mention how dinosaurs entirely discredit this story) and not only that but not every species can survive the Middle Eastern environment, we know seeing a flash of light and hearing a voice is an extremely strong indication of schizophrenia or some form of psychosis, and depending on your denomination we know there is absolutely no way that Native Americans came from Israel.
This my friend is what we with scientifically inclined minds call objective and critical thinking. Religion is entirely subjective, and often based on primitive (although not always inaccurate) interpretations of the world. Even today many people believe in a just world, or Karma, or divine judgement, or whatever you want to call it, even though an honest and subjective analysis of the earth does not support this, but rather anyone who does not close their eyes will see there is much uncertainty in our lives, and indeed the entire planet, and bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. A truly objective observation will only reveal there is no such thing as a cosmic force of justice.

 

[InChrist]

But with practically no evidence to support the Bible, how can you say it is objective? We have no evidence of a global flood, we know various cultures separated by great oceans have independently developed their own languages, we know once biological functioning has ceased that even bones do not stand much of a chance to last and decay occurs very rapidly, we know there is no evidence for the Exodus, and we know that certain psychedelic drugs and mental disorders can cause what most would call a religious experience. We know that when prayer is put to the test it doesn't work, we know that genetic mutations can eventually give rise to new species, we know the earth is billions of years old (but that is a very weak argument since the Bible not once states the age of the earth or universe), and we know today (actually the ancient Greeks knew this) the earth is not flat or fixed in it's position. We know having sex with a woman who is on her period is not any less sanitary than when she is not menstruating and she is far from unclean, we have a general mutual agreement that people should not be bought with money, the fossil record does not agree with Genesis on what life forms came first and then later (another weak point I'll admit), and we know the book of Revelations was probably not prophecy but a coded message to Christians and churches of that era. We also know, largely due to haste and threat of a death sentence, as well as people who weren't as good as they thought, the English Bible is a very terrible translation. We know that a Caucasian with the name of Jesus is VERY out of place for the time and setting (this one depends on individuals and their specific denominations), we know the Arc was just too small for two of every species on this planet (not to mention how dinosaurs entirely discredit this story) and not only that but not every species can survive the Middle Eastern environment, we know seeing a flash of light and hearing a voice is an extremely strong indication of schizophrenia or some form of psychosis, and depending on your denomination we know there is absolutely no way that Native Americans came from Israel.
This my friend is what we with scientifically inclined minds call objective and critical thinking. Religion is entirely subjective, and often based on primitive (although not always inaccurate) interpretations of the world. Even today many people believe in a just world, or Karma, or divine judgement, or whatever you want to call it, even though an honest and subjective analysis of the earth does not support this, but rather anyone who does not close their eyes will see there is much uncertainty in our lives, and indeed the entire planet, and bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. A truly objective observation will only reveal there is no such thing as a cosmic force of justice.

Everyone has a worldview and everyone interprets evidence based upon this, their foundational worldview. I believe there are areas of life, especially the spiritual, which humans cannot know or understand without outside divine revelation coming from the Creator to humanity His creation. The biblical scriptures and the Son of God who came to earth in the Person of Jesus Christ claim to be that revelation. So I accept God's Word and believe it to be substantiated by historical, prophetic, archeological, and enough scientific evidence along with my own personal experience of God through the scriptures to accept it as a true and reasonable, not blind subjective faith.

The list you have included above may be things that you claim to know, but you cannot speak for everyone when you use the word "we" and I do not know that there is no evidence to support the Bible. Your list also includes some erroneous ideas as; the earth being flat, Jesus was a Caucasian, or that Native Americans came from Israel, among others, that I have never believed, nor do I know of any other born-again Christian who does or ever has. Are you just repeating false caricatures of Christians you've heard and picked up along the way or lumping all ideas together of anyone who claims to be Christian?

 

[Antiochian]

Pentecostalism, which is a fast-growing branch of Christianity, is steeped in the occult as far as I'm concerned. "Secret prayer languages"--that's what the charismatic who helped me speak in tongues the first time called it. Revelations and "words of knowledge?" "Holy laughter" and barking like a dog? (These things do occur at charismatic meetings--the Toronto Blessing comes to mind.)