Occultism

[InChrist]

We are Gods according to christ. We are also Christ according to Christ.

Divination as throwing x thing or reading y other is just a way into tap to our inherent knowledge.

When you are one with God, you get forknowledge.

As student X put it, """ocultism""" is only such when the """occultist""" is a bad person.

For starters, unless you only care about power or some silly thing like that there is little reason to make this things remain occult. There are a lot of books about this subject that anyone can buy, so it is not an "occult" knowledge anymore anyways, so the term "occultism" is completely unfitting unless we define it as a person that doesn´t will to share it´s divine knowledge with others who would be able to learn it and use it properly and with responsability.

I don't think I can discuss this further with you because I do not hold the perspective that "we are gods" and definitely believe this to be a deception one would believe when involved with occult practices and therefore listening to and accepting doctrines of demons.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons...1 Tim. 4:1

 

[Me Myself]

When Jesus said we are Gods was he under the influnce of Demons? o.o

 

[Student of X]

Like you said, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Yes of course, and we'll have to pray for each other.

Having come from a background of false teachings, including new age practices I see mysticism as nothing less than "Christianized" sorcery and an open doorway for Satan's deception.

It's a mistake to let the limited background of one person form your perspective, even when that person is yourself. Perhaps especially so.

There is only one responsible perspective, and that is one not limited by the local culture you just happened to be born into. One that is panoramic, in that it transcends borders of culture and era, just as God does. Studying comparative religion is a good way to start.

Such a perspective is no threat to Christianity, but it is a threat to the kind of narrow-minded fundamentalism that mistakes sacred mysticism for occultism.

 

[InChrist]

When Jesus said we are Gods was he under the influnce of Demons? o.o

I think I've discussed this with you before and others have also. You take this one verse out of context and use it to suit your own believe that you are a god. If you want to do that I'm not interested in arguing or convincing you otherwise.

 

[tumbleweed41]

The scriptures record biblical historical events and highlight specific individuals and the situations they were in, but simply because a practice occurred in the Bible during Old Testament history does not mean it is applicable for everyone at anytime to practice.

Apologetics aside, what of the other occultic practices of baptism, Eucharist or Communion, fasting, prayer, etc.
Are these not means to acquire deeper spiritual understanding beyond the use of reason and natural science.
To one outside of Christianity, this seems to be very much esoteric and occultist.

 

[InChrist]

Yes of course, and we'll have to pray for each other.

It's a mistake to let the limited background of one person form your perspective, even when that person is yourself. Perhaps especially so.

There is only one responsible perspective, and that is one not limited by the local culture you just happened to be born into. One that is panoramic, in that it transcends borders of culture and era, just as God does. Studying comparative religion is a good way to start.

Such a perspective is no threat to Christianity, but it is a threat to the kind of narrow-minded fundamentalism that mistakes sacred mysticism for occultism.

What are your favorite mystical practices?

 

[Me Myself]

I think I've discussed this with you before and others have also. You take this one verse out of context and use it to suit your own believe that you are a god. If you want to do that I'm not interested in arguing or convincing you otherwise.

Suit yourself but the only piece in all the bible where Jesus directly says that he is God is exactly there, when he says we all are.

Take it as yuo may though :s

 

[InChrist]

Apologetics aside, what of the other occultic practices of baptism, Eucharist or Communion, fasting, prayer, etc.
Are these not means to acquire deeper spiritual understanding beyond the use of reason and natural science.
To one outside of Christianity, this seems to be very much esoteric and occultist.

Baptism is a step of identification with Christ's death and resurrection to new life. The elements of Communion are symbolic and are a reminder of Christ's death on the cross for forgiveness of sins. Fasting is a time to focus on the spiritual rather than physical and prayer is communicating with God. These are practices revealed and instituted by Christ and God's Word there is nothing occultic or mystical about them.

 

[Student of X]

What are your favorite mystical practices?

Most of my mystical experiences, encounters, or whatever have been spontaneous. That is to say, brought about by God and not through my mystical practice.

My favorite practices are contemplative prayer, Qigong, fasting, and pilgrimages.

 

[InChrist]

Most of my mystical experiences, encounters, or whatever have been spontaneous. That is to say, brought about by God and not through my mystical practice.

My favorite practices are contemplative prayer, Qicong, fasting, and pilgrimages.

Do you test your experiences and the subsequent ideas that come out of them by the scriptures or do you believe that anything you experience spiritually is from God?

 

[tumbleweed41]

Baptism is a step of identification with Christ's death and resurrection to new life. The elements of Communion are symbolic and are a reminder of Christ's death on the cross for forgiveness of sins. Fasting is a time to focus on the spiritual rather than physical and prayer is communicating with God. These are practices revealed and instituted by Christ and God's Word there is nothing occultic or mystical about them.

Even though baptism was practiced long before the death and resurrection spoken of in the Bible?
Aside from that, everything you just said confirms that these practices are means to acquire deeper spiritual understanding beyond the use of reason and natural science.

As you said..."focus on the spiritual rather than physical and prayer is communicating with God."

My point is that your perception of these acts is that they are not occultic because you have been taught that occultism and mysticism is "evil". When the reality is, they are an intrigal part of most religions.

You see someone who attempts to communicate with spirits as an "occultist", yet you do not aply the same criteria whe you speak to God. The fortune teller is an "occultist", yet you do not apply the same criteria in interpretations of Daniel and Revelations.

 

[Student of X]

Do you test your experiences and the subsequent ideas that come out of them by the scriptures or do you believe that anything you experience spiritually is from God?

Indeed I do test! In turn, my experiences test me.

I completely understand where you are coming from, because 25 years ago my perspective was much like yours. Since then I have seen angels and demons, I have been taken up to Heaven, I have had visions and dreams of the future that have come true. I have successfully performed every task God has asked of me.

Combined with my studies of comparative mysticism, my experiences give me a rare perspective. The Christian that I was 25 years ago would not begin to understand.

 

[Quintessence]

Baptism is a step of identification with Christ's death and resurrection to new life. The elements of Communion are symbolic and are a reminder of Christ's death on the cross for forgiveness of sins. Fasting is a time to focus on the spiritual rather than physical and prayer is communicating with God. These are practices revealed and instituted by Christ and God's Word there is nothing occultic or mystical about them.

Really? I find this very odd considering you described each of these events in a very mystical fashion. Working with and understanding your deities through symbolic rituals in a direct and personal fashion is mysticism to a tee. Unless, of course, all that happens during Baptism is getting wet and all that happens during communion is eating some crackers and drinking some wine... and that sounds awfully hedonistic for a Christian.

But this may all just be arguing over semantics.

 

[InChrist]

Even though baptism was practiced long before the death and resurrection spoken of in the Bible?
Aside from that, everything you just said confirms that these practices are means to acquire deeper spiritual understanding beyond the use of reason and natural science.

As you said..."focus on the spiritual rather than physical and prayer is communicating with God."

My point is that your perception of these acts is that they are not occultic because you have been taught that occultism and mysticism is "evil". When the reality is, they are an intrigal part of most religions.

You see someone who attempts to communicate with spirits as an "occultist", yet you do not aply the same criteria whe you speak to God. The fortune teller is an "occultist", yet you do not apply the same criteria in interpretations of Daniel and Revelations.

In the OT there was ritual washings symbolic of spiritual cleansing, then related to this in the NT there was John's baptism of repentance in preparation for the coming Messiah. Jesus instituted the practice of baptism when He told the disciples to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19). There is nothing magic or mystical about following God's commands and example.

You may think that communicating with God is no different than the techniques of a fortune teller but that is only because you do not accept the existence of the spiritual realm or differentiate between spiritual beings or methods. The Creator has revealed specific ways to approach Him which are legitimate and safe, anything else is illegitimate, dangerous, and according to the scriptures sorcery putting one in contact and under the influence of demonic beings.

Daniel interpreted dreams by God's power, in God's timing, and for God's purposes. It was not an ability he sought for himself or brought about through any mystical method or magick formula.

 

[InChrist]

Really? I find this very odd considering you described each of these events in a very mystical fashion. Working with and understanding your deities through symbolic rituals in a direct and personal fashion is mysticism to a tee. Unless, of course, all that happens during Baptism is getting wet and all that happens during communion is eating some crackers and drinking some wine... and that sounds awfully hedonistic for a Christian.

But this may all just be arguing over semantics.

From my perspective all that happens when one is baptized is that they get wet and all that happens during communion is eating crackers and wine or juice. Nothing mystical or magic happens. They are simply reminders of what Christ has already done and sincerely participating in these practices shows that one accepts and believes in Christ.

 

[tumbleweed41]

...You may think that communicating with God is no different than the techniques of a fortune teller but that is only because you do not accept the existence of the spiritual realm or differentiate between spiritual beings or methods....

So, you do not see the hypocrisy in your position?

Spirituality and mysticism in Christendom is acceptable, but outside of Christianity it is occultic evil?

 

[InChrist]

So, you do not see the hypocrisy in your position?

Spirituality and mysticism in Christendom is acceptable, but outside of Christianity it is occultic evil?

It may appear as hypocrisy to you, but I can't help that. I believe there is one God who created heaven and earth and He has provided what is acceptable through His revelation to humanity.

 

[tumbleweed41]

It may appear as hypocrisy to you, but I can't help that. I believe there is one God who created heaven and earth and He has provided what is acceptable through His revelation to humanity.

Understood.

And do you understand why those outside of Christianity would see no difference between praying to God and speaking to spirits? Or Daniel interpreting dreams and a medium doing the same?

 

[InChrist]

Understood.

And do you understand why those outside of Christianity would see no difference between praying to God and speaking to spirits? Or Daniel interpreting dreams and a medium doing the same?

Yes, I can understand.

 

[Student of X]

I had to think about this for a few moments, because my first instinct was to say "I don't believe in that." However, if interpreted from the standpoint that there are conflicting ideologies among various peoples and cultures, there is a truth in this. I'm just not sure I'd phrase it quite in that manner.

What, you don't accept the Jungian collective unconscious?

"It is only by understanding Jungian psychology that the outsider will gain any appreciation of the rationale of the neopagan movement. Without it, the movement will appear a collection of exotic ideas and practices."

- David Burnett, Dawning of the Pagan Moon