Occultism

[InChrist]

Excellent points. There is no doubt that Jesus was a mystic / occultist, it is obvious. The thing is, one must find this truth for themselves, as Christ even said. When others are telling you what to believe, nothing is going to get accomplished. I bet the OP was taught that occultism is evil by another, yes?

While individuals must understand and believe God's truth for themselves, the scriptures OT or NT do not indicate that Yahweh or Christ wanted people to seek or find spiritual knowledge through their own methods or make up their own truth. As a matter of fact all such efforts were condemned as sorcery and idolatry. In the OT, for those within the nation of Israel, the punishment was death. God has revealed Himself and His truth to humanity though the prophets, the apostles, and Christ Himself.

I was never taught that occultism was evil by anyone, so that is probably the reason I was involved with and accepted occult practices as valid for many years before being saved by Christ. I saw the malevolent evil of the dark spiritual realm and learned about it on my own. If anyone taught me how evil it was and showed me my own sinful involvement in such practices it was Jesus Christ Himself.

 

[InChrist]

It's not contrary, any more than solid food is contrary to milk. They aren't exactly the same thing, that's true, but they are both food for the spirit and they are both from God. One is for the average everyday man-on-the-street and one is for mystics.

You really should stop listening to that 'lighthouse trails' website you keep linking to. They don't know what they are talking about. Try doing some scholarly reading! Have you read anything by Karen Armstrong or Huston Smith?

Why would I turn from the Word of God or those who uphold His truth to those like Karen Armstrong and Huston Smith or the many others who teach the doctrines of demons??? I read an endless number of materials for research purposes, but I am quite selective on what I trust to read for edification and believe as truth. When I was delivered and saved years ago by Jesus Christ from a variety of false beliefs God gave me the gift of discernment and He graciously and quickly warns me when I'm reading or hearing ideas or teachings in conflict with His Word.

 

[Student of X]

Why would I turn from the Word of God or those who uphold His truth to those like Karen Armstrong and Huston Smith or the many others who teach the doctrines of demons???

I don't believe I asked you to do that my friend. You make a tragic error when you lump Karen and Huston in with demons. Lucky for you, they are gracious enough to forgive you for your willful ignorance and hasty judgmentalism.

Boy, I am getting more and more disappointed in you with every post you make.

The Case for God

I read an endless number of materials for research purposes, but I am quite selective on what I trust to read for edification and believe as truth.

That's probably why you are so misinformed. You can't just go through life reading things that you already know are going to support your conceptions, and avoiding things that will challenge your conceptions. That is how a coward does religion.

 

[InChrist]

That's probably why you are so misinformed. You can't just go through life reading things that you already know are going to support your conceptions, and avoiding things that will challenge your conceptions. That is how a coward does religion.

So are you saying one should believe anything...if it sounds good...if it feels good???

I don't do religion. My faith is in the Person of Jesus Christ.

 

[Me Myself]

And Jesus didn´t believe the whole OT, just that which made sense to him morally.

More than once he spoke against the laws of the OT. Many of them, and condemened those who upheld them.

Banning "occultism" may be as sillyas banning pork eating.

 

[Student of X]

So are you saying one should believe anything...if it sounds good...if it feels good???

I'm saying, one should decide about an author after reading their book.

I don't do religion. My faith is in the Person of Jesus Christ.

Everything you do should be religion. Every action you take, every thought bent toward God, always practicing the presence of God. But I get your drift.

Look I'm sorry if I'm hard on you. I'm sure that spiritually, you are right where you are supposed to be. I'm just saying that it might be wise if you explored another perspective.

Visions Of God: Four Medieval Mystics and Their Writings

The mystics of the twelfth and thirteenth centuries were, writes Karen Armstrong, like "the astronauts of our own day. They broke into a new religion, blazed a new trail to God and to the depths of the self, a trail far from the beaten pilgrimage paths of Chaucer and Langland." Mysticism is a spiritual mystery shared in some form by all faiths; it has a supernatural quality that extends beyond the given boundaries of religious creed and may be experienced by any lay person. The thrilling intensity of a mystical experience, as represented in this volume by the writings of four mystics of the Middle Ages, can inspire other spiritual seekers with its insight into the limitless wonder of both human and divine experience.

Dissatisfied by the strictures of dogma and a religion that failed to quench the human thirst for knowledge of a mystical order, these four mystics--Richard Rolle of Hampole, Walter Hilton, Dame Julian of Norwich, and the unknown author of The Cloud Of Unknowing --communicate an intense and passionate experience of faith rare in any time. Because of their unique beliefs and spiritual strength, their knowledge and writings have proved timeless, and in this beautiful volume show contemporary seekers important new insights into the nature of divine love.

 

[1137]

[FONT=&quot]I have a few questions for you just so I can understand your perspective a little better. When you speak of the rituals of Christianity, like baptism, communion, etc. do you mean these practices as done in the Catholic Church? Do you equate Catholism with the teachings of the Bible? Does the following quote below from one of your lasts posts indicate that you are Jewish and your perspective is based on Judaism or is your perspective from the LHP or a combination of beliefs?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] “Judaism, the religion Jesus followed and Christianity originally comes from, does not hold this idea that God is only part of the whole. We believe God is the whole, and is perfect and balanced, not flawed and chaotically lost in the realm of all lovingness.”[/FONT]

I equate Christianity, in all of its forms, with the false teachings of Christ that those religions base themselves on. None of them follow what Christ actually taught, as that information is lost to history. As for the quote, it is part of all my beliefs. I am a mystic, so I believe "God" is whole, Judaism believes God is both loving and vengeful (Jews in Auschwitz put God on trial and found him guilty of crimes against humanity), etc. We do not believe in a God that is only part of the whole, I do not see that as a God.

While individuals must understand and believe God's truth for themselves, the scriptures OT or NT do not indicate that Yahweh or Christ wanted people to seek or find spiritual knowledge through their own methods or make up their own truth. As a matter of fact all such efforts were condemned as sorcery and idolatry. In the OT, for those within the nation of Israel, the punishment was death. God has revealed Himself and His truth to humanity though the prophets, the apostles, and Christ Himself.

This may shock you, but the OT was written by man, not God. Not only is it based on metaphorical oral stories, but it is also filled with the bias and flaw of mere human being thousands of years ago. The Torah is a "living book", it evolves just as the religion does. Otherwise Judaism would be long gone. It will still be around when Christianity is a distant memory in the mind of humanity, as well as whatever comes after.

I was never taught that occultism was evil by anyone, so that is probably the reason I was involved with and accepted occult practices as valid for many years before being saved by Christ. I saw the malevolent evil of the dark spiritual realm and learned about it on my own. If anyone taught me how evil it was and showed me my own sinful involvement in such practices it was Jesus Christ Himself.

You obviously did not understand occultism. This is why it is for the strongest minds they warn. What you believe will happen affects what does. You believed evil will happen, so it did. It is funny that people like you claim how harmful occultism is when people like me have never had any such problems. Just because you could not handle it does not make it evil per say, only evil relative to you.

 

[InChrist]

We do not believe in a God that is only part of the whole, I do not see that as a God.

What do you mean by this?

 

[InChrist]

Look I'm sorry if I'm hard on you. I'm sure that spiritually, you are right where you are supposed to be. I'm just saying that it might be wise if you explored another perspective.

No need to apologize for being hard. Christ is my shield.

http://www.amazon.com/Visions-God-Medieval-Mystics-Writings/dp/0553351990

Visions Of God: Four Medieval Mystics and Their Writings

The mystics of the twelfth and thirteenth centuries were, writes Karen Armstrong, like "the astronauts of our own day. They broke into a new religion, blazed a new trail to God and to the depths of the self, a trail far from the beaten pilgrimage paths of Chaucer and Langland." Mysticism is a spiritual mystery shared in some form by all faiths; it has a supernatural quality that extends beyond the given boundaries of religious creed and may be experienced by any lay person. The thrilling intensity of a mystical experience, as represented in this volume by the writings of four mystics of the Middle Ages, can inspire other spiritual seekers with its insight into the limitless wonder of both human and divine experience.

Dissatisfied by the strictures of dogma and a religion that failed to quench the human thirst for knowledge of a mystical order, these four mystics--Richard Rolle of Hampole, Walter Hilton, Dame Julian of Norwich, and the unknown author of The Cloud Of Unknowing --communicate an intense and passionate experience of faith rare in any time. Because of their unique beliefs and spiritual strength, their knowledge and writings have proved timeless, and in this beautiful volume show contemporary seekers important new insights into the nature of divine love.

[/quote]


This stuff is so ecumenical and self-exalting. Though you say you were a Christian at one time I don't know how you ever could have known new life in Christ yet have now turned from Him to such vain philosophies.

 

[Student of X]

This stuff is so ecumenical and self-exalting.

It's amazing how you can come to that conclusion without even reading the book! Maybe you have an "occult" super-ability?

Though you say you were a Christian at one time I don't know how you ever could have known new life in Christ yet have now turned from Him to such vain philosophies.

Well, you're right about one thing. You don't know.

You are misusing words and misunderstanding ideas...but I guess that's ok. I'm not really judging (unlike some people around here). After all, if God wanted you to be on a diet of 'solid food', you can bet you would be. But you aren't on solid food, and so that can only mean you aren't ready for it. So carry on with your milk bottle, baby sister.

 

[1137]

What do you mean by this?

We do not believe in a God that is only part of the whole, I do not see that as a God.

Well, my idea, and the idea my family and Jewish friends hold, is that God is whole. God is The All, He is the begging and end, all that there is, etc. This is the idea of God I grew up with, and the idea I eventually returned to long after seeking new paths. I could not believe in an incomplete and unbalanced God like yours because it makes no sense to me, or to logic as I know it. God is perfect, balance is perfection, not unbalance. This is why there is a "Left-Hand of God" aspect in my beliefs, because God is balancing. The writers of the Torah did not need to invent a Devil character, because we are concerned with Truth rather than comfort.

So carry on with your milk bottle, baby sister.

:clap
I can't give you more frubals yet. Damn

 

[InChrist]

Well, my idea, and the idea my family and Jewish friends hold, is that God is whole. God is The All, He is the begging and end, all that there is, etc. This is the idea of God I grew up with, and the idea I eventually returned to long after seeking new paths. I could not believe in an incomplete and unbalanced God like yours because it makes no sense to me, or to logic as I know it. God is perfect, balance is perfection, not unbalance. This is why there is a "Left-Hand of God" aspect in my beliefs, because God is balancing. The writers of the Torah did not need to invent a Devil character, because we are concerned with Truth rather than comfort.

I believe that God is the Beginning and the End and that He is perfect and complete within Himself because this is what the scriptures teach. What do you mean by whole? And what do you mean by incomplete or unbalanced?

I can agree with you the writer(s) of the Torah did not need to invent the character of the devil because God revealed the existence of this being who was opposed to Him(God) and the enemy of humanity. The titles devil or Satan may not have been revealed at first, but the nature and character of this being was definitely was revealed

 

[1137]

I believe that God is the Beginning and the End and that He is perfect and complete within Himself because this is what the scriptures teach. What do you mean by whole? And what do you mean by incomplete or unbalanced?

I mean your God is all-loving (supposedly), all-good, all-forgiving, all-merciful... such imbalance leads to chaos and imperfection. My God is loving and vengeful, merciful and just, forgiving in cases... That is what I mean by whole. I do not believe this simply because a book written by men says so, but because it is logical and obvious. If all is God, then that is all, not some.

I can agree with you the writer(s) of the Torah did not need to invent the character of the devil because God revealed the existence of this being who was opposed to Him(God) and the enemy of humanity. The titles devil or Satan may not have been revealed at first, but the nature and character of this being was definitely was revealed

If you have no concept of what the OT actually says then this conversation is futile. As I said, you have to pick Judaism (OT) OR Christianity (NT). They are not the same book, no matter how many people have been convinced so. And I hate to break it to you, but Jesus, the Jewish Rabbi, believed in the OT and Judaism.

 

[InChrist]

It's amazing how you can come to that conclusion without even reading the book! Maybe you have an "occult" super-ability? /quote]

I don't need to read an entire book of jokes to know it is a book containing humor. I don't have to read a whole U.S. History book to realize it is a book about American history. And I don't have to read an entire book of ecumenical mysticism to know that it is promoting occult spirituality, universalism, sorcery, and is totally contrary to God's Word.

But you aren't on solid food, and so that can only mean you aren't ready for it. So carry on with your milk bottle, baby sister. [/quote]

If you want to redefine the biblical terminology of "solid food" according to your desired philosophy I certainly can't prevent you, yet the scriptures clarify what solid food means and it is not mysticism. I'd rather exist on God's solid word and be grounded in the scriptures and survive on milk if need be, than buy into Satan's deception.

 

[1137]

I don't need to read an entire book of jokes to know it is a book containing humor. I don't have to read a whole U.S. History book to realize it is a book about American history. And I don't have to read an entire book of ecumenical mysticism to know that it is promoting occult spirituality, universalism, sorcery, and is totally contrary to God's Word.

You take things at face value when there is a supernatural beast of deception after you?

 

[InChrist]

I mean your God is all-loving (supposedly), all-good, all-forgiving, all-merciful... such imbalance leads to chaos and imperfection. My God is loving and vengeful, merciful and just, forgiving in cases... That is what I mean by whole. I do not believe this simply because a book written by men says so, but because it is logical and obvious. If all is God, then that is all, not some.

[FONT=&quot]What do you mean God is all? Does this mean that you do not believe in a personal God who is separate from His creation?


[/FONT]

If you have no concept of what the OT actually says then this conversation is futile. As I said, you have to pick Judaism (OT) OR Christianity (NT). They are not the same book, no matter how many people have been convinced so. And I hate to break it to you, but Jesus, the Jewish Rabbi, believed in the OT and Judaism.

[/quote]

I believe I basically know what the OT says and the Christian faith is built upon the word of God as revealed to the prophets of the OT and the apostles in the NT. All of the testimony of the prophets and apostles point to the Messiah, Jesus Christ, the ultimate Savior, Prophet and revelation of God. Yes, the scriptures show that Jesus accepted the writings of the prophets, but clearly He did not accept all the traditions of men incorporated into religious Judaism.






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[InChrist]

You take things at face value when there is a supernatural beast of deception after you?

What is that supposed to mean?

 

[1137]

[FONT=&quot]What do you mean God is all? Does this mean that you do not believe in a personal God who is separate from His creation?[/FONT]

He is and He isn't. As said, it is complex, and there is no way to simplify it. I envy you actually for being able to have such a clear picture of God. The God I believe in is beyond our understanding, we are human after all. But God is within us and external of us, and all things, although all of "reality" is just energy of God anyways.

I believe I basically know what the OT says and the Christian faith is built upon the word of God as revealed to the prophets of the OT and the apostles in the NT. All of the testimony of the prophets and apostles point to the Messiah, Jesus Christ, the ultimate Savior, Prophet and revelation of God. Yes, the scriptures show that Jesus accepted the writings of the prophets, but clearly He did not accept all the traditions of men incorporated into religious Judaism.

The Christian faith, as it is today at least, does not build upon the OT but changes it for its own use. That is blasphemous in my opinion. It is funny that you claim to understand Judaism and yet believe Christ is the Messiah. When the messiah comes there will be peace, which there has not been for the past 2,000 years like there would be if Christ was the messiah. Not to mention that Christ was a well versed Jew, and he would not be so ignorant and uneducated to think that he was the Son of God nor the Messiah. But again, you can believe what you wish.
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[InChrist]

He is and He isn't. As said, it is complex, and there is no way to simplify it. I envy you actually for being able to have such a clear picture of God. The God I believe in is beyond our understanding, we are human after all. But God is within us and external of us, and all things, although all of "reality" is just energy of God anyways.

I do think God is beyond human comprehension, but I believe God understands our limitations. Therefore, I believe He reaches down to our level and has revealed Himself in simple ways we can understand. This is what the scriptures express. What if you are making things concerning God more complex than they really are and are missing the reality God wants you to see?

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[InChrist]

The Christian faith, as it is today at least, does not build upon the OT but changes it for its own use. That is blasphemous in my opinion. It is funny that you claim to understand Judaism and yet believe Christ is the Messiah. When the messiah comes there will be peace, which there has not been for the past 2,000 years like there would be if Christ was the messiah. Not to mention that Christ was a well versed Jew, and he would not be so ignorant and uneducated to think that he was the Son of God nor the Messiah. But again, you can believe what you wish.
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[FONT=&quot]I did not claim to understand Judaism. I said I basically understand the OT[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot].I would like to discuss this idea: "When the messiah comes there will be peace, which there has not been for the past 2,000 years like there would be if Christ was the messiah.". but it is getting late now, so maybe sometime in the next few days.[/FONT]