Occultism

[tumbleweed41]

What, you don't accept the Jungian collective unconscious? And you're a neopagan?

"It is only by understanding Jungian psychology that the outsider will gain any appreciation of the rationale of the neopagan movement. Without it, the movement will appear a collection of exotic ideas and practices."

- David Burnett, Dawning of the Pagan Moon​

Don't fall prey to the "No True Scotsmen" fallacy.

 

[Student of X]

Don't fall prey to the "No True Scotsmen" fallacy.

Thanks but I'm just trying to understand people, I'm not judging.

 

[InChrist]

I completely understand where you are coming from, because 25 years ago my perspective was much like yours. Since then I have seen angels and demons, I have been taken up to Heaven, I have had visions and dreams of the future that have come true. I have successfully performed every task God has asked of me.

Combined with my studies of comparative mysticism, my experiences give me a rare perspective. The Christian that I was 25 years ago would not begin to understand.

I am very sorry to hear that experiences are your priority and criteria for truth. I think when this becomes the case Satan is ready to provide all kinds of deceptive experiences.

And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
2 Cor. 11:4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Experience is the mother of illusion." C.S. Lewis, Screwtape Letters

 

[Student of X]

I am very sorry to hear that experiences are your priority and criteria for truth. I think when this becomes the case Satan is ready to provide all kinds of deceptive experiences.

And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
2 Cor. 11:4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Experience is the mother of illusion." C.S. Lewis, Screwtape Letters

Then pray for me and try not to judge me too harshly. After all, you weren't there when God took me up to Heaven.

Emotionally, it's difficult for me to talk about this kind of thing with exoteric, orthodox, non-mystical Christians, whom I regard as 'spiritual babes, infants in Christ', uninitiated, living on a diet of spiritual milk. In order to understand where I am coming from, you need to be on a diet of solid food. But solid food is not right for everyone.

Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly--mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 1 Corinthians 3:1-2

Though your hasty words hurt me, I understand that they come from a sincere place and that they are the words of an innocent uninitiated infant, spiritually speaking.

 

[blackout]

Thanks but I'm just trying to understand people, I'm not judging.

Not to beat a dead horse, but,

you're certainly (and continuously) judging sorcerers.
(as thieves)

You have literally (and quite unfairly) DEFINED them as such.

just pointing that out.

To me, a 'Christian' mystic,
is a mystic STUCK in a paradigm.
(specifically) Stuck in the paradigm of "Christian".
ie., Christian mystics cannot shift beyond
'christian paradigms'. (ideas, labels, verses etc etc)

Paradigm shifting requires 'dislodging',
'deconstruction'.... the breakdown of "what one 'already knows'".
By definition, the transcendent, transcends.


You never did respond to me,
and alas, I'm trying to understand people too.

 

[1137]

I see that I am late for the party. Considering that I missed 9 pages, I will address the greatest points of the OP I find necessary.

***Insert Original Post Here***

Well this is just silly. First of all, you have to decide if we are talking about Judaism or Christianity. You mention God and Satan but then the OT and Israel. I am sorry to inform you, but Christian belief has nothing to do with Judaism almost at all these days. For example, what you call Satan is Samael in Jewish mythology, the Venom of God. He is the angel of death, the opposer, the accuser, the adversary, and still an agent of God. He is an necessary angel, the balancing factor. Also, Judaism does not believe in such black / white concepts of good and evil. There is no Satan in the Christian sense. God is both good and evil, merciful and just, etc.

Yes, this is my belief and I believe it to be accurate because it is the revealed word of God

There are far too many problems with this line of thought to delve into here.

Personally,I have realized the danger of seeking spiritual insights apart from God in my own life and I've seen the destruction it has brought to others. I'm just expressing this reality, but you or anyone else are free to disagree.

If mysticism (which is occultism) is so dangerous, I find it intriguing that Jesus and the NT preach mysticism constantly. I do not see how a Christian can believe in Christ if what he preached and practiced was so destructive.

There are some who would view many Christian practices as "occultist".

Christianity is based on occult mysticism.

Like you said, we'll have to agree to disagree. Having come from a background of false teachings, including new age practices I see mysticism as nothing less than "Christianized" sorcery and an open doorway for Satan's deception.

I guess Christ worshiped Satan. Below I have provided some of the many NT quotes that preach mysticism, and therefore occultism. If you truly believe what you have argued here, the only option is to abandon your current religion and seek a less evil, destructive one. Or, you could open your mind to God rather than to what human writers and preachers say and perhaps understand what Christ really stood for.

• Peter 1:4 says that God enables Christians to be "partakers of the divine nature."
• John 17:21 records Jesus' prayer for his followers during the last supper: "You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; [I pray] that they also may be one in Us."
• In Galatians 2:20, Paul says "It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me."
• In Ephesians 4:6, Paul writes "[There is] one God and Father of all who is above all and through all and in all.
• 1 John 4:16: "He who abides in love abides in God, and God in him."
• 1 Corinthians 6:19: "Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?"
• 2 Timothy 1:14: "Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us."

You are saying that we need to look only to God and not into ourselves, but scripture here clearly teaches differently. Christ and his followers were mystics, they believed that God resides within us. Therefore, we can know God through occultism / mysticism. As above, so below.

 

[Quintessence]

What, you don't accept the Jungian collective unconscious?

"It is only by understanding Jungian psychology that the outsider will gain any appreciation of the rationale of the neopagan movement. Without it, the movement will appear a collection of exotic ideas and practices."

- David Burnett, Dawning of the Pagan Moon

Honestly, I haven't given Jungian psychology any sort of thorough and direct study. I don't "accept" it because I have only a superficial familiarity with his ideas and already have my own way of accounting for things. It seems to me that "collective unconscious" is a tame way of introducing folks to the otherworlds. It sounds more "rational" to the prevailing cultural ways of thinking and is less likely to get dismissed outright.

I do believe that book isn't one I've consulted. I can't find much information about it since it is out of print. Is it written by an academic/scholar?

 

[InChrist]

Then pray for me and try not to judge me too harshly. After all, you weren't there when God took me up to Heaven.

Emotionally, it's difficult for me to talk about this kind of thing with exoteric, orthodox, non-mystical Christians, whom I regard as 'spiritual babes, infants in Christ', uninitiated, living on a diet of spiritual milk. In order to understand where I am coming from, you need to be on a diet of solid food. But solid food is not right for everyone.

Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly--mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 1 Corinthians 3:1-2

Though your hasty words hurt me, I understand that they come from a sincere place and that they are the words of an innocent uninitiated infant, spiritually speaking.

1 Corinthians was written to to the church at Corinth to address various issues of: strife, contentions, division, immorality, idolatry, carnality, proper use of spiritual gifts, and godly love among others. Taken in context the verses you quoted (2 Cor. 1:1-2) are in reference to those who were carnal, still living worldly lives, self-centered, infantile and therefore causing strife. They had accepted and believed Paul's initial message about Christ (milk), but they had not matured to the message of Christ "crucified"(solid food). Instead of mature behavior of humility, concern for others, and obedience to God's revelation on living a godly life they wanted lives of exaltation. They did not have the mind of Christ.

The solid food of the scriptures has no connection to mystical experiences or some kind of elitist Christian initiation. There is no initiation in Christianity. Initiations belong to secret societies, witchcraft, and occultism. Solid food means maturity in Christ and living a life crucified and in obedience to Christ.

I do not mean to hurt your feelings and I am sorry if I do, but I honestly believe you are playing with fire and endangering yourself and others by advocating mystical experience over God's revealed warning against such activity. I will pray for you.

 

[Student of X]

1 Corinthians was written to to the church at Corinth to address various issues of: strife, contentions, division, immorality, idolatry, carnality, proper use of spiritual gifts, and godly love among others. Taken in context the verses you quoted (2 Cor. 1:1-2) are in reference to those who were carnal, still living worldly lives, self-centered, infantile and therefore causing strife.

I think that today, most orthodox Christians are as carnal as they were. The Church has fallen away because there is not enough mysticism being practiced. People just sit in pews and sing hymns and do bake sales and whine about social conservatism. Well, that might be ok for infants in Christ, but there is more than that available for grown-ups in Christ. But you have to want it.

They head accepted and believed Paul's initial message about Christ (milk), but they had not matured to the message of Christ "crucified"(solid food). Instead of mature behavior of humility, concern for others, and obedience to God's revelation on living a godly life they wanted lives of exaltation. They did not have the mind of Christ.

The initial message was the exoteric, orthodox, everyday message for the man-on-the-street. That is the surface message that orthodox Christians accept. That is the milk.

There is nothing wrong with it. Babies need milk, spiritual children need an exoteric layer. After all, not everyone can be a mystic.

The esoteric message is the solid food, and it is for mystics. To get the esoteric message you need to be initiated by the Holy Spirit. That is a mystical experience. Then, and only then, are you are on solid food.

 

[InChrist]

Well this is just silly. First of all, you have to decide if we are talking about Judaism or Christianity. You mention God and Satan but then the OT and Israel. I am sorry to inform you, but Christian belief has nothing to do with Judaism almost at all these days. For example, what you call Satan is Samael in Jewish mythology, the Venom of God. He is the angel of death, the opposer, the accuser, the adversary, and still an agent of God. He is an necessary angel, the balancing factor. Also, Judaism does not believe in such black / white concepts of good and evil. There is no Satan in the Christian sense. God is both good and evil, merciful and just, etc.

I did not mention Judaism. I mentioned the OT and Israel.

If mysticism (which is occultism) is so dangerous, I find it intriguing that Jesus and the NT preach mysticism constantly. I do not see how a Christian can believe in Christ if what he preached and practiced was so destructive.

Jesus preached God's Word.

Christianity is based on occult mysticism.



I guess Christ worshiped Satan. Below I have provided some of the many NT quotes that preach mysticism, and therefore occultism. If you truly believe what you have argued here, the only option is to abandon your current religion and seek a less evil, destructive one. Or, you could open your mind to God rather than to what human writers and preachers say and perhaps understand what Christ really stood for.

• Peter 1:4 says that God enables Christians to be "partakers of the divine nature."
• John 17:21 records Jesus' prayer for his followers during the last supper: "You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; [I pray] that they also may be one in Us."
• In Galatians 2:20, Paul says "It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me."
• In Ephesians 4:6, Paul writes "[There is] one God and Father of all who is above all and through all and in all.
• 1 John 4:16: "He who abides in love abides in God, and God in him."
• 1 Corinthians 6:19: "Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?"
• 2 Timothy 1:14: "Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us."

You are saying that we need to look only to God and not into ourselves, but scripture here clearly teaches differently. Christ and his followers were mystics, they believed that God resides within us. Therefore, we can know God through occultism / mysticism. As above, so below.

[/quote]

The above list of scriptures do not indicate occultism at all, nor is Christianity based on occult practices. These verses describe what takes place in the life of one who places their faith in the Person of Jesus Christ. Occultism involves ones faith in the method, ritual, or technique they perform and the subsequent experience.

God has revealed His truth, wisdom, and spiritual realities to His creation. Information and realities that humanity otherwise apart from His revelation cannot understand. Seeking to know spiritual matters or have spiritual experiences on our own or through our own methods, which open the way for demonic deception, is occultism.

God dwelling in the life of a believer may sound mystical to a non-believer, but it is simply a reality revealed by God.

 

[InChrist]

I think that today, most orthodox Christians are as carnal as they were. The Church has fallen away because there is not enough mysticism being practiced. People just sit in pews and sing hymns and do bake sales and whine about social conservatism. Well, that might be ok for infants in Christ, but there is more than that available for grown-ups in Christ. But you have to want it.

The initial message was the exoteric, orthodox, everyday message of the man-on-the-street. That is the surface message that orthodox Christians accept. That is the milk.

There is nothing wrong with it. Babies need milk, spiritual children need an exoteric layer. After all, not everyone can be a mystic.

The esoteric message is the solid food, and it is for mystics. To get the esoteric message you need to be initiated by the Holy Spirit. That is a mystical experience. Then, and only then, are you are on solid food.

There is nothing esoteric or hidden about the gospel. The message of Christ is available to everyone and all who trust Him receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, it is simple and straightforward. The esoteric message you are advocating is another gospel contrary to God's Word.


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Contemplative Spirituality: A belief system that uses ancient mystical practices to induce altered states of consciousness (the silence) and is rooted in mysticism and the occult but is often wrapped in Christian terminology. The premise of contemplative spirituality is pantheistic (God is all) and panentheistic (God is in all).[/FONT]

Lighthouse Trails Research Project - Exposing Contemplative Spirituality

 

[1137]

I did not mention Judaism. I mentioned the OT and Israel.

If you do not realize that the OT and Israel deal with Judaism please tell me. I cannot spend time talking about something that you apparently do not understand.

Jesus preached God's Word.

Prove it. Sorry, but the bible does not count as an accurate source, and it is not the words of Jesus anyways. I do believe that Christ was an enlightened person, which you will find is extremely rare among people like me. However, the NT is a quite obviously corrupted work on the teachings of Christ. So much in there is blasphemous against the Jewish God (Christ's god, little history lesson) that it is insulting that people even believe it is of the same deity. Not to mention that Christ was supposedly a Rabbi, he would never claim to be the messiah or son of God in any way that Christianity teaches he does, unless he was an imbecile who did not understand his own religion. I refuse to believe that, but you are welcome to.

The above list of scriptures do not indicate occultism at all, nor is Christianity based on occult practices. These verses describe what takes place in the life of one who places their faith in the Person of Jesus Christ. Occultism involves ones faith in the method, ritual, or technique they perform and the subsequent experience.

No, the scripture I provided indicate mysticism, which is intertwined with occultism. They are both seeking answers to the unknown. I must laugh though, that you call yourself Christian but seem to think there is no method, ritual, and technique involved in your religion. I suppose you have never been to Church. The rituals of Christianity are extremely occult in nature because Christianity itself was similar to the mystery religions. There is initiation (baptism), confirmations, preaching, rituals, prayer / magick / meditation (these are the same for the most part), etc. I do not even know of any legitimate Satanic occult organizations who literally eat the flesh and drink the blood of another human being. You are calling these other groups evil when your religion has some of the most questionable rituals I've ever researched in all my years of studying occultism.

God has revealed His truth, wisdom, and spiritual realities to His creation. Information and realities that humanity otherwise apart from His revelation cannot understand. Seeking to know spiritual matters or have spiritual experiences on our own or through our own methods, which open the way for demonic deception, is occultism.

Jesus said that God is in us. This means that we can know God through our own methods, as long as we are spiritually enlightened enough to do so and to understand. You also came in with this silly demon stuff again. Judaism, the religion Jesus followed and Christianity originally comes from, does not hold this idea that God is only part of the whole. We believe God is the whole, and is perfect and balanced, not flawed and chaotically lost in the realm of all lovingness. If you are into the Bible, I would suggest reading the OT for what it actually meant before Christianity changed all the meanings.

God dwelling in the life of a believer may sound mystical to a non-believer, but it is simply a reality revealed by God.

Well, I believe in a much deeper, more personal God who I can have a personal connection with and who is within me and all things. You may believe in whichever idea of God you want, it does not affect me. But, this discussion cannot continue between us. My idea of God, as described through all holy works, is extremely complex and meaningful. You are right, why you would devote yourself to following an imperfect, unbalanced God down a simple black and white spiritual path will never be understood by me.

 

[InChrist]

Well, I believe in a much deeper, more personal God who I can have a personal connection with and who is within me and all things. You may believe in whichever idea of God you want, it does not affect me. But, this discussion cannot continue between us. My idea of God, as described through all holy works, is extremely complex and meaningful. You are right, why you would devote yourself to following an imperfect, unbalanced God down a simple black and white spiritual path will never be understood by me.

I can certainly respect your wishes if you feel this discussion cannot continue. I think it could be somewhat difficult, also as you seem to have quite a few confused ideas concerning the biblical God and Christianity, but that is very understandable.

 

[1137]

I can certainly respect your wishes if you feel this discussion cannot continue. I think it could be somewhat difficult, also as you seem to have quite a few confused ideas concerning the biblical God and Christianity, but that is very understandable.

Could you please point out these perceived conclusions? I'm very interested in knowing and correcting them.

 

[InChrist]

Could you please point out these perceived conclusions? I'm very interested in knowing and correcting them.

I will seriously try to get back to you next week on this subject. I have to do some other things for the remainder of the weekend. I hope you have a good weekend.

 

[1137]

I will seriously try to get back to you next week on this subject. I have to do some other things for the remainder of the weekend. I hope you have a good weekend.

I look forward to the attempt! Have a great weekend!

 

[Student of X]

There is nothing esoteric or hidden about the gospel. The message of Christ is available to everyone and all who trust Him receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, it is simple and straightforward. The esoteric message you are advocating is another gospel contrary to God's Word.

It's not contrary, any more than solid food is contrary to milk. They aren't exactly the same thing, that's true, but they are both food for the spirit and they are both from God. One is for the average everyday man-on-the-street and one is for mystics.

You really should stop listening to that 'lighthouse trails' website you keep linking to. They don't know what they are talking about. Try doing some scholarly reading! Have you read anything by Karen Armstrong or Huston Smith?

 

[Me Myself]

There is nothing esoteric or hidden about the gospel. The message of Christ is available to everyone and all who trust Him receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, it is simple and straightforward. The esoteric message you are advocating is another gospel contrary to God's Word.

Who told you Jesus wasn´t esoteric?

He said more than once that he wants people to ask stuff to him when he says something complicated, and that he won´t exlain further unless specifically asked. He did this more than once, and this is an esoteric kind of practice: those who do not care to seek, don´t "diserve" to know (or to be more fitting are not "ready" to know).

The phrase "Those who have ears listen" is also a very esoteric one. He is saying his words are not so simple to understand as to just hearing them. He said to his disciples to not overteach in his parable about giving precious things to pig, because they will stomp in it and then chase after you.

Jesus was VERY esoteric. He also continuosly told people to do stuff for themselves. He continuosly said that people only needed faith tio behealed, to the point that because everyone approached him to be healed he shouted to the heavens how mcuh time Father will I have to stay here with this people of little faith? Why did he said they had little faith? if all of them were asking him to heal them? Because they did´t have faith enough to be healed without him.

The most ancient traductions have a passage where he will heal a leper and it says he felt ANGRY and then healed him. He was tired of people not being able to see their real power, even whenhe tirelessly remembered people that their faith had all the power.

If you see the real Jesus, he was TRYING to make everyone see things that people still believe are "occult" instead of simple reailties.

The occult isn´t occult because people don´t explain about it or ebcause God "hid it" but because people are so low on faith it is almost imposible for them to see it.

It is rather very sad.

 

[1137]

Who told you Jesus wasn´t esoteric?

He said more than once that he wants people to ask stuff to him when he says something complicated, and that he won´t exlain further unless specifically asked. He did this more than once, and this is an esoteric kind of practice: those who do not care to seek, don´t "diserve" to know (or to be more fitting are not "ready" to know).

The phrase "Those who have ears listen" is also a very esoteric one. He is saying his words are not so simple to understand as to just hearing them. He said to his disciples to not overteach in his parable about giving precious things to pig, because they will stomp in it and then chase after you.

Jesus was VERY esoteric. He also continuosly told people to do stuff for themselves. He continuosly said that people only needed faith tio behealed, to the point that because everyone approached him to be healed he shouted to the heavens how mcuh time Father will I have to stay here with this people of little faith? Why did he said they had little faith? if all of them were asking him to heal them? Because they did´t have faith enough to be healed without him.

The most ancient traductions have a passage where he will heal a leper and it says he felt ANGRY and then healed him. He was tired of people not being able to see their real power, even whenhe tirelessly remembered people that their faith had all the power.

If you see the real Jesus, he was TRYING to make everyone see things that people still believe are "occult" instead of simple reailties.

The occult isn´t occult because people don´t explain about it or ebcause God "hid it" but because people are so low on faith it is almost imposible for them to see it.

It is rather very sad.

Excellent points. There is no doubt that Jesus was a mystic / occultist, it is obvious. The thing is, one must find this truth for themselves, as Christ even said. When others are telling you what to believe, nothing is going to get accomplished. I bet the OP was taught that occultism is evil by another, yes?

 

[InChrist]

I look forward to the attempt! Have a great weekend!

[FONT=&quot]I have a few questions for you just so I can understand your perspective a little better. When you speak of the rituals of Christianity, like baptism, communion, etc. do you mean these practices as done in the Catholic Church? Do you equate Catholism with the teachings of the Bible? Does the following quote below from one of your lasts posts indicate that you are Jewish and your perspective is based on Judaism or is your perspective from the LHP or a combination of beliefs?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] “Judaism, the religion Jesus followed and Christianity originally comes from, does not hold this idea that God is only part of the whole. We believe God is the whole, and is perfect and balanced, not flawed and chaotically lost in the realm of all lovingness.”[/FONT]