Oh God! The knower of all….. testing us!!!!!!!!!

[morphesium]

Almost all religion says that that god is testing us how worthy we are – for some religion, life is single long test and in others there are a few occasional short tests that we have to go through.


If I write down a computer loop program that simply shows a random number between 0 and 1000 for every two seconds and runs it – it will show a random number for two seconds, then goes to show another random number and so on. I don’t know which number the computer is about to display but God knows everything – every random number that my computer is going to display even before I start running the program. That’s God. What’s random to us is just predetermined by god.

Our brain is an intricate network of neurological connections that largely determines the way we think, the way we analyze and the outcome of this etc, much of which are out of our control. When we find a unique solution for a mathematics problem when we do something creative (composing music) etc – it is these brain signals (that we are not in control of) that do the job, which we rightfully take the credit for. (God knows how much current will go through in each of these neurological wires, God know what we think and its outcome even before we do).

Spoiler: May skip this

[Moreover, it is now well understood now that there is nothing like free will. Our likes, dislikes are largely controlled by our subconscious mind something which we can reprogram - to change our likes, dislikes and creativity].

Now imagine this- I am making some tires. I make some tyres out of rubber. I make some tyres with pulped paper, some with brass, some with plastic and some with wood. I know each of its properties and how they are going to perform. I put each tyre on different roads and if the tyre failed to give me a comfortable ride, I will kick them, puncture with a hot iron rod, paint them and then put to fire, put off the fire and repaints them – something I repeat again and again. And if the tyre gave me a comfortable ride, I will make it my sweet pillow. You might be thinking I am an insane moron to do this. But then this is exactly what god is supposed to do for the believers. So aren’t you believers mocking your God with this?


Blessed are the non-believers.

Thanking you.

 

[JustWondering]

So are you asking believers in a god who is all-knowing and all-powerful why he didn't just create followers with freewill who are worthy to begin with and skip all the testing nonsense? I doubt you will get much of a response.

 

[George-ananda]

The OP assumes a materialistic deterministic universe created by the traditional God concept of the Abrahamic world; it is certainly trying to mesh contradictory worldviews for the purpose of belittling theism. This argument has been done so many times before. I personally though don't accept materialism from my study of things paranormal and the teachings of the spiritual masters I most respect. In fact, I believe consciousness is something non-material and fundamental and the material is derivative of consciousness.

The purpose of life is Self-Realization in my view; not testing.

 

[Zardoz]

I do not think that just because G-d knows all the possible outcomes of all our possible choices, means he knows which one 'we' will choose. All choices exist equally for him, but only one exists for 'us' once we choose it.

 

[Tumah]

Almost all religion says that that god is testing us how worthy we are – for some religion, life is single long test and in others there are a few occasional short tests that we have to go through.


If I write down a computer loop program that simply shows a random number between 0 and 1000 for every two seconds and runs it – it will show a random number for two seconds, then goes to show another random number and so on. I don’t know which number the computer is about to display but God knows everything – every random number that my computer is going to display even before I start running the program. That’s God. What’s random to us is just predetermined by god.

Our brain is an intricate network of neurological connections that largely determines the way we think, the way we analyze and the outcome of this etc, much of which are out of our control. When we find a unique solution for a mathematics problem when we do something creative (composing music) etc – it is these brain signals (that we are not in control of) that do the job, which we rightfully take the credit for. (God knows how much current will go through in each of these neurological wires, God know what we think and its outcome even before we do).

Spoiler: May skip this

[Moreover, it is now well understood now that there is nothing like free will. Our likes, dislikes are largely controlled by our subconscious mind something which we can reprogram - to change our likes, dislikes and creativity].

Now imagine this- I am making some tires. I make some tyres out of rubber. I make some tyres with pulped paper, some with brass, some with plastic and some with wood. I know each of its properties and how they are going to perform. I put each tyre on different roads and if the tyre failed to give me a comfortable ride, I will kick them, puncture with a hot iron rod, paint them and then put to fire, put off the fire and repaints them – something I repeat again and again. And if the tyre gave me a comfortable ride, I will make it my sweet pillow. You might be thinking I am an insane moron to do this. But then this is exactly what god is supposed to do for the believers. So aren’t you believers mocking your God with this?


Blessed are the non-believers.

Thanking you.

You are mistaken in your understanding of the purpose of the test. Of course G-d knows in the most intimate fashion what we would ever do in any given situation. And technically, based on that knowledge He could have skipped the testing altogether and just created the souls that would have passed the tests their reward straight after having been created. But the purpose of the test is not to clarify to Him who deserves what. The purpose of the test is to give us the ability to enjoy the reward to the greatest extent possible. Here are two ways that I know of that this is accomplished through testing:
1. The highest form of charity is getting someone a job. In this way, the receiver's humiliation of being needy is changed to self-respect at having become self-sufficient. G-d's testing us acts like a job. It gives us some extra layer of satisfaction in our reward, for having worked for it.
2. There is a concept in the spiritual dimension which otherwise lacks physical dimensions, that juxtaposition is based on similarity. The more similar two things are to each other, the closer they are said to be. The more dissimilar, the further. In this respect, by performing some amount of work for our reward, we are given the potential to move from being complete receivers (had we only been created and immediately received our reward), to a degree of giver (through our giving service to G-d). Through this, we attain added closeness to the Supreme Giver of the world.

 

[JustWondering]

You are mistaken in your understanding of the purpose of the test. Of course G-d knows in the most intimate fashion what we would ever do in any given situation. And technically, based on that knowledge He could have skipped the testing altogether and just created the souls that would have passed the tests their reward straight after having been created. But the purpose of the test is not to clarify to Him who deserves what. The purpose of the test is to give us the ability to enjoy the reward to the greatest extent possible. Here are two ways that I know of that this is accomplished through testing:
1. The highest form of charity is getting someone a job. In this way, the receiver's humiliation of being needy is changed to self-respect at having become self-sufficient. G-d's testing us acts like a job. It gives us some extra layer of satisfaction in our reward, for having worked for it.
2. There is a concept in the spiritual dimension which otherwise lacks physical dimensions, that juxtaposition is based on similarity. The more similar two things are to each other, the closer they are said to be. The more dissimilar, the further. In this respect, by performing some amount of work for our reward, we are given the potential to move from being complete receivers (had we only been created and immediately received our reward), to a degree of giver (through our giving service to G-d). Through this, we attain added closeness to the Supreme Giver of the world.

The concept of god creating throw away people just so a few can say "gee, glad I didn't end up like those *******" makes him extremely callous and lacking in empathy. He could just as easily give false memories, letting his chosen few indulge their self-centered desire to feel extra special about themselves while keeping his own hands clean.

 

[Thanda]

My belief is that God did not create all of who we are. There is a part of us which God never created and which he cannot destroy. In Mormon theology it is called intelligence. This the part of us which thinks and feels. I believe God approached us while we were intelligences and proposed to us a plan whereby we could learn, progress and develop capabilities that allow us to experience more fulfilling lives. Those who learned all the lessons he would teach could become like him. This possibility, of becoming like him, led us to being called his children. We accepted his offer and became his children. Our experiences in this life prepare us to receive the reward he has promised.

 

[Tumah]

The concept of god creating throw away people just so a few can say "gee, glad I didn't end up like those *******" makes him extremely callous and lacking in empathy. He could just as easily give false memories, letting his chosen few indulge their self-centered desire to feel extra special about themselves while keeping his own hands clean.

Were you going for a non sequitur here?

 

[Thief]

Almost all religion says that that god is testing us how worthy we are – for some religion, life is single long test and in others there are a few occasional short tests that we have to go through.


If I write down a computer loop program that simply shows a random number between 0 and 1000 for every two seconds and runs it – it will show a random number for two seconds, then goes to show another random number and so on. I don’t know which number the computer is about to display but God knows everything – every random number that my computer is going to display even before I start running the program. That’s God. What’s random to us is just predetermined by god.

Our brain is an intricate network of neurological connections that largely determines the way we think, the way we analyze and the outcome of this etc, much of which are out of our control. When we find a unique solution for a mathematics problem when we do something creative (composing music) etc – it is these brain signals (that we are not in control of) that do the job, which we rightfully take the credit for. (God knows how much current will go through in each of these neurological wires, God know what we think and its outcome even before we do).

Spoiler: May skip this

[Moreover, it is now well understood now that there is nothing like free will. Our likes, dislikes are largely controlled by our subconscious mind something which we can reprogram - to change our likes, dislikes and creativity].

Now imagine this- I am making some tires. I make some tyres out of rubber. I make some tyres with pulped paper, some with brass, some with plastic and some with wood. I know each of its properties and how they are going to perform. I put each tyre on different roads and if the tyre failed to give me a comfortable ride, I will kick them, puncture with a hot iron rod, paint them and then put to fire, put off the fire and repaints them – something I repeat again and again. And if the tyre gave me a comfortable ride, I will make it my sweet pillow. You might be thinking I am an insane moron to do this. But then this is exactly what god is supposed to do for the believers. So aren’t you believers mocking your God with this?


Blessed are the non-believers.

Thanking you.

Saw it written somewhere....God does not test Man.

but you have a point.....so....have you read the parable ?
the Sower of Seed

 

[Aquitaine]

You are mistaken in your understanding of the purpose of the test. Of course G-d knows in the most intimate fashion what we would ever do in any given situation. And technically, based on that knowledge He could have skipped the testing altogether and just created the souls that would have passed the tests their reward straight after having been created. But the purpose of the test is not to clarify to Him who deserves what. The purpose of the test is to give us the ability to enjoy the reward to the greatest extent possible. Here are two ways that I know of that this is accomplished through testing:
1. The highest form of charity is getting someone a job. In this way, the receiver's humiliation of being needy is changed to self-respect at having become self-sufficient. G-d's testing us acts like a job. It gives us some extra layer of satisfaction in our reward, for having worked for it.
2. There is a concept in the spiritual dimension which otherwise lacks physical dimensions, that juxtaposition is based on similarity. The more similar two things are to each other, the closer they are said to be. The more dissimilar, the further. In this respect, by performing some amount of work for our reward, we are given the potential to move from being complete receivers (had we only been created and immediately received our reward), to a degree of giver (through our giving service to G-d). Through this, we attain added closeness to the Supreme Giver of the world.

Why doesn't your God create a global "starting point' in terms of, say, zero infant mortality/disease, so that all of its creations have a shot at this "job".
It is essentially killing off a significant portion of its testing population before they've even begun the test, by relying 100% on humans to attempt to eradicate disease and infant mortality.

 

[Thief]

Why doesn't your God create a global "starting point' in terms of, say, zero infant mortality/disease, so that all of its creations have a shot at this "job".
It is essentially killing off a significant portion of its testing population before they've even begun the test, by relying 100% on humans to attempt to eradicate disease and infant mortality.

God gave Man dominion.

 

[Aquitaine]

God gave Man dominion.

But God didn't give Man dominion over disease and infant mortality.....
Even still, God apparently left humans in charge knowing full-well their violent and irrational nature.

 

[Tumah]

Why doesn't your God create a global "starting point' in terms of, say, zero infant mortality/disease, so that all of its creations have a shot at this "job".
It is essentially killing off a significant portion of its testing population before they've even begun the test, by relying 100% on humans to attempt to eradicate disease and infant mortality.

That was the starting point.

 

[Aquitaine]

That was the starting point.

Then God seems to have allowed the starting point to mutate into something lethal which humans (for the vast majority of the species' existence) couldn't combat. Only now thanks to modern medical science can some of the world combat God's diseases and infant mortality.

Why did God allow the starting point to degrade?

 

[Thanda]

Then God seems to have allowed the starting point to mutate into something lethal which humans (for the vast majority of the species' existence) couldn't combat. Only now thanks to modern medical science can some of the world combat God's diseases and infant mortality.

Why did God allow the starting point to degrade?

Because the universe is a chaotic place. Things don't come easy. You have to work for it. There are disappointments, tragedies etc. If God kept the world free of every ill then this would be a useless place as a testing ground. It would be like training an army and giving them a training enemy who always does what they (the army being trained) expects them to do. How ready will they be when actual warfare happens?

As for children who die, don't worry too much about them. God knows exactly how he will train and test them. It is his job and he knows how to do his job. Ours is to concentrate on our job on Earth.

 

[morphesium]

You are mistaken in your understanding of the purpose of the test. Of course G-d knows in the most intimate fashion what we would ever do in any given situation. And technically, based on that knowledge He could have skipped the testing altogether and just created the souls that would have passed the tests their reward straight after having been created. But the purpose of the test is not to clarify to Him who deserves what. The purpose of the test is to give us the ability to enjoy the reward to the greatest extent possible.

Our happiness, our behaviors, our moods etc largely depend on our brain structure, its connections and a lot of chemicals. Have you ever heard of mood altering drugs. Put some mood depressors in your blood and "a million dollar" , " the best music", "the best religious verse" etc wont make you any more happy. Put some mood enhancers- and even the ticking of a clock may give you enough and more reasons to laugh uncontrollably. Reduce or intensify the activity of a specific part of the brain and we may end up more gloomy or increasingly levitated. Your gods test and reward system is a failure.

One of the rubber tyre (in OP) is going to be my pillow; But the God in me is wondering - why use the tyre as a pillow when I can make far better pillows myself.​

Here are two ways that I know of that this is accomplished through testing:
1. The highest form of charity is getting someone a job. In this way, the receiver's humiliation of being needy is changed to self-respect at having become self-sufficient. G-d's testing us acts like a job. It gives us some extra layer of satisfaction in our reward, for having worked for it.
2. There is a concept in the spiritual dimension which otherwise lacks physical dimensions, that juxtaposition is based on similarity. The more similar two things are to each other, the closer they are said to be. The more dissimilar, the further. In this respect, by performing some amount of work for our reward, we are given the potential to move from being complete receivers (had we only been created and immediately received our reward), to a degree of giver (through our giving service to G-d). Through this, we attain added closeness to the Supreme Giver of the world.

What about false memories? There are things that you forget. Such things are contradicting your post. God could have made us even better - with far better intelligence, far more fun loving, far more understanding - that everyone would have passed the test.
Your test system is valid only if your god is an insane moron.

 

[Thief]

But God didn't give Man dominion over disease and infant mortality.....
Even still, God apparently left humans in charge knowing full-well their violent and irrational nature.

and what better way to sort the good stuff from the bad.......let them bang their heads till the blood rolls.

Might does not make right.
but the spirit within us need not fail......just because someone else wants to be 'pushy'.

Even dogmatic faith has comfort knowing heaven is a place of peace.
I believe that peace will be guarded.

Anyone fool enough to bruise my cheek will be met at the Door......in like manner.

Hence the fair warning....
Do unto others as you have it done unto you.

 

[morphesium]

My belief is that God did not create all of who we are. There is a part of us which God never created and which he cannot destroy. In Mormon theology it is called intelligence. This the part of us which thinks and feels. I believe God approached us while we were intelligences and proposed to us a plan whereby we could learn, progress and develop capabilities that allow us to experience more fulfilling lives. Those who learned all the lessons he would teach could become like him. This possibility, of becoming like him, led us to being called his children. We accepted his offer and became his children. Our experiences in this life prepare us to receive the reward he has promised.

So the intelligence part is not created by God?. what about the brain? - I think he could have made it a little bit bigger physically (to our size), so this part of us which thinks and feels would be much more advanced so that we could be more humorous, understanding, more scientifically oriented etc . So we can all be rewarded much more.

Concerned with those who learned all the lessons :- This is very much depend on our brain structure. Give them a good brain and they will excel in it. (We have a much evolved brain than chimpanzees - what it takes for a chimpanzee 10 years to learn would take less than a minute for us).

Our experiences play a big role in making what we are. Statistically, higher morale exists where quality of life is better. This is very true - not only with humans, but also with animals. If the animals have a violent childhood, then there is a greater chance that these animals could be troublesome in its adult life. Perhaps, such incidents restructure their brain that way- taking things out of their control.

Additionally, when we (I or you) make a decision, it is often our subconscious mind that actually makes the decision even though we don't realize it. Subconscious mind play a big role in determining our likes and dislikes. Please see spoiler.
All along the way, the scientific facts doesn't go with religious thoughts.

Spoiler: A related story from my life about the effect of subconscious mind - May sikp this

At this point, let me tell you a story from my past. When I was a kid at the age of 11, I was put to a boarding house. There, on all Sundays after the lunch, they served a typical sweet dessert. I tell you it was my favorite (favorite among most of us) –and I really enjoyed it. We were around 80 or so boys of varying ages in the boarding house. In one occasion, most of the senior boys went to attend some function or so. The cooks, who weren’t informed about this and being a Sunday, made their usual quantity of this desert, which eventually landed up on our plates. I thought it was my lucky day as a few of them more were served on my plate. I had some of them enjoying it and I had to my fill. However, (personally) disliking to waste food, I thought I would finish the rest of the desert and so I continued with my eating. Very soon, I wasn’t enjoying it anymore and I was fed up of this. But I still continued with my eating; I had a sensation to vomit but finally, I finished it (i think i finished it - just not clear now).
That Sunday was over and the next one came. So came the desert after the lunch. But I still hated it – even its smell turned out to be unbearable. I never had that desert again, even after coming out of the school.

Some 15 years later, after the incident, I came to learn about subconscious mind and about autosuggestion. Those lessons thought me that it was my subconscious that actually controlled much of my desires, fears, likes and dislikes. It also told me how to change these.

So as a practice lesson, I took this particular dislike for that dessert which was still going strong. I auto suggested to myself that the dessert was good and I love it for 30 days as the course recommended. (21 days minimum). After some days (maybe two or three months after), in an occasion this particular dessert was served. To tell you the truth, I loved it as if I never hated it. Even the smell of it was gorgeous.

 

[Thanda]

So the intelligence part is not created by God?. what about the brain? - I think he could have made it a little bit bigger physically (to our size), so this part of us which thinks and feels would be much more advanced so that we could be more humerus, understanding, more scientifically oriented etc . So we can all be rewarded much more.

Concerned with those who learned all the lessons :- This is very much depend on our brain structure. Give them a good brain and they will excel in it. (We have a much evolved brain than chimpanzees - what it takes for a chimpanzee 10 years to learn would take less than a minute for us).

The brain is not intelligence. The brain is an interface between the Intelligence and the body. If God gave us a bigger brain we would be more intelligent but we would not be better people (morally). Hitler was probably more intelligent than Mother Theresa.

Our experiences play a big role in making what we are. Statistically, higher morale exists where quality of life is better. This is very true - not only with humans, but also with animals. If the animals have a violent childhood, then there is a greater chance that these animals could be troublesome in its adult life. Perhaps, such incidents restructure their brain that way- taking things out of their control.

Children from the same family usually turn out differently regardless of having very similar upbringings. Each person decides how they will react to their circumstances.

But you are right our environment does play a role. That is why we cannot properly navigate this life without God's help. Without God, how people turn out morally would be left to chance. With God people can chose what kind of people they would like to become (morally) regardless of their circumstances.

E.g. Jesus said it was as difficult for a rich person to get into heaven as it was for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. Then he added, "But with God nothing shall be impossible"

Additionally, when we (I or you) make a decision, it is often our subconscious mind that actually makes the decision even though we don't realize it. Subconscious mind play a big role in determining our likes and dislikes. Please see spoiler.
All along the way, the scientific facts doesn't go with religious thoughts.

True. But what is in our sub conscience. Our subconscious remembers everything that has ever happened to us even if we don't consciously remember it. We never truly forget anything. Every time we make a bad decision it increases the probability that you will make another bad decision in future. This is because the effects of our bad decision is etched into our subconscious. So the fact that our subconscious influences how we react to a situation does not absolve us from responsibility for the choices we make.

 

[Hawkins]

Almost all religion says that that god is testing us how worthy we are – for some religion, life is single long test and in others there are a few occasional short tests that we have to go through.

It's not about test. It's about filtering. God's ultimate goal is to build an eternal realm with entities of freewill. Freewill simply means an entity is given the ability to choose between 1 and 0. As a logical and statistical expected outcome, when given a large amount of such entities, some will choose 1 while others will choose 0.

1 = to be with God
0 = not to be with Him

There's nothing in between. In order to build such an eternal realm called Heaven, only those choose 1 will be brought to the final product - Heaven. God knows from the beginning will are they, but not the angels (and other chosen witnesses). Those who will choose 1 thus are predestined to show up as the qualified for the witnesses to know God's standard laid for Heaven, and for the saved to be legitimately brought to Heaven in accordance to this standard.


Humans are left clueless about God's plan, though they are famous in relying on their so called intelligence/knowledge to make judgments.

It is thus said (prophesied) that, "the same day you eat of it, the same day you shall surely die."