Oh God! The knower of all….. testing us!!!!!!!!!

[Thanda]

There is a big difference in the beliefs you are comparing. The Higgs Boson was theorized to exist by modern day scientists based on science and math. Your spirits are claimed to exist by superstitious people who lived thousands of years ago and thought the earth was flat and seizures were caused by demonic possession. The Higgs boson was proven to exist after 50 years of it existence being theorized. The existence of your spirits has yet to be proven after thousands of years. Claiming the belief in a theorized particle and spirits are equally rational beliefs is misleading.

Scientist once believed pluto was a planet. Does the fact that they were wrong invalidate the other claims they have made?

Christians have never tried to find scientific proofs for their beliefs. The proof of a christian's belief is in the life they live. Those who have come to know God have come to feel joy beyond comprehension. Those who seek him do so for this very purpose. And ultimately, when all is said and done, the pursuit of happiness is the basics of what drives humanity.

 

[Thief]

So you believe in some kind of non-physical existence beyond our physical existence? How would anyone know about a non-physical existence if it existed? Since we are physical beings that exist in a physical universe how do you KNOW any kind of non-physical existence is not anything more than wishful thinking and fantasy?

I do this by taking a look at ...'likelihood'...
or if you prefer....'the odds'...

7billion copies of a device that can do no more than expose your thought and feeling to this reality.
We are here to learn.
There is no mystery to life.

and then all of these copies turn to dust.
ALL of them.

So if there is no afterlife....the mystery returns without any potential resolve.
Without God in heaven and heaven waiting to see what stands from the dust.....
Man is a mystery.

I believe in life after death.

7billion+ and no one survives the last breath?
not one chance in billions?

the odds favor at least a few survivors will stand in that last hour.

 

[viole]

Scientist once believed pluto was a planet. Does the fact that they were wrong invalidate the other claims they have made?

Christians have never tried to find scientific proofs for their beliefs. The proof of a christian's belief is in the life they live. Those who have come to know God have come to feel joy beyond comprehension. Those who seek him do so for this very purpose. And ultimately, when all is said and done, the pursuit of happiness is the basics of what drives humanity.

How does "X makes people happy" entails "X is true"?

If I had cancer, but the doctor says that those spots on the film were just problems with the computer and I am very healthy, that would make me probbly happy and relieved beyond comprehension.

Would that logically entail that it is also true?

Ciao

- viole

 

[dust1n]

A chariot leaves heaven at 6:40 pm going 130 mph. At 7:40 pm, a wagon with 2 horses leaves hell at 7:40 going 22 mph...

 

[Aquitaine]

People can change but people usually don't God knows into which category each person belongs. The doors of heaven and hell are always open. Nobody who is in Heaven is forced to stay there and no one in hell is forced to stay there either. Evidence of this can be seen from the fact that the devil who was in heaven moved from there to hell.

In Doctrine and Covenants 88 we have the following:
36 All kingdoms have a law given;

37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.

38 And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.

39 All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified.
So anyone who finds himself in hell is welcome to come to heaven if the can live the law of heaven. Therefore those who will find themselves in heaven or hell will be there because the laws they were willing to live. God can't exactly promise people heaven and then turn around and allow liars and such into that same place.

And finally, no Heaven or hell will not change you. To quote something by JRR Tolkein:
For it is not the [land] that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land;
Heaven is heaven because of the people who live there. Hell is hell because of the people who live there.

Wait so, people can choose freely to travel from Heaven and Hell?! In that case, there's even less need for life being the ultimate "test" for membership of their two places, since a person who has died (and who is over 50 ) can change after the test has taken place and be granted membership into the alternative area.

True He would have no right interfering with us unless we gave him permission. I believe in the beginning God came to us and offered us an opportunity to progress in knowledge and power. We accepted and that is what has got the ball rolling. He first gave us spirit bodies and for some times we lived and learned in heaven. Then the final part of our progression was to come here on Earth and receive a body and have our final tests and preparation for the reward we wish to receive.

And what is the reward? The reward is you! Whatever you become is your reward. And according to what you become that will also determine your power and happiness. What gave Nelson Mandela the power to influence an entire nation? It was his character. And our character is all we can take with us to the next life.

I sure as Hell didn't consent to being here, none of us did. I never gave it permission, am I therefore being held prisoner by a malicious deity who threatens to torture me for non-compliance?

Regarding reward, "the next life", as in the next life provided by God? So our "reward" for apparently allowing God to throw us into reality is for him to do it all over again?

Those who suffer from mental health disorders will be dealt with mercifully by God. God knows how much their mental health disorder would have affected them and will take that into account in his judgement. Indeed in the resurrection we will receive perfect bodies. Then it will become clear whether our bad characters were a result of our mental disorders or not.

Firstly, describe a "perfect body".
Secondly, again, God wouldn't have to go through with all of this additional effort if it simply allowed people to be born without disorders (or vulnerability to disorders) in the first place. God is making more work for itself in this bizarre inefficient "test" model.

Precisely. God knew some people would turn to evil when they were no longer in his presence. Therefore (as the prudent God he is) he devised a way to use the evil actions they would do to further his own righteous purposes. He decided to put everyone on one earth. Thereby those who chose evil would provide an opposition to those who wanted to do good. Then those who did good use those bad experiences to become stronger. Or they would fall meaning their resolve was not yet strong enough. On the other hand, by having the good and the evil in one earth it also served to give the evil an opportunity to learn from those who are good. Robert Mugabe gets to live in the same earth as Nelson Mandela and it gives him a chance to learn from him if he is willing to change.

That makes no sense. So God needs people to do evil, for without evil it deems our lives to be less meaningful, yet God will punish those same people who carry out exactly what God itself wants to happen?

If you have nothing in your life you wish to improve then you don't need to worry about being saved.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Thanda]

Wait so, people can choose freely to travel from Heaven and Hell?! In that case, there's even less need for life being the ultimate "test" for membership of their two places, since a person who has died (and who is over 50 ) can change after the test has taken place and be granted membership into the alternative area.

Describe "freely"

I sure as Hell didn't consent to being here, none of us did. I never gave it permission, am I therefore being held prisoner by a malicious deity who threatens to torture me for non-compliance?

Regarding reward, "the next life", as in the next life provided by God? So our "reward" for apparently allowing God to throw us into reality is for him to do it all over again?

You did consent - you simply cannot remember. Like a person who consents to being hypnotized cannot remember while in the hypnosis that he consented. But when he and we wake up all will be remembered.

Firstly, describe a "perfect body".
Secondly, again, God wouldn't have to go through with all of this additional effort if it simply allowed people to be born without disorders (or vulnerability to disorders) in the first place. God is making more work for itself in this bizarre inefficient "test" model.

Alma 11:

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.​

God seems to find this "more work" to be necessary. I think God is the kind of person who isn't shy of working hard.

That makes no sense. So God needs people to do evil, for without evil it deems our lives to be less meaningful, yet God will punish those same people who carry out exactly what God itself wants to happen?

Well actually what God needs is for people to be perfect. But we're not. So he uses our imperfections to help all of us learn and grow. But since he never created our imperfections we are each accountable and responsible for sins we commit.

Care to elaborate?

In Doctrine and Covenants 88:

32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

33 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.​

 

[Aquitaine]

Describe "freely"

As in, they are able to travel to both destinations so long as they agree to follow the laws of each area?

You did consent - you simply cannot remember. Like a person who consents to being hypnotized cannot remember while in the hypnosis that he consented. But when he and we wake up all will be remembered.

How could "I" have consented to something that happened before "I" even existed and formed a human personality?

God seems to find this "more work" to be necessary. I think God is the kind of person who isn't shy of working hard.

There's a difference between working hard, and working in an inefficient, counter-productive manner. There is also an element of malice involved when his ineffecient and clumsy work causes untold needless suffering and premature deaths to countless individuals.

Well actually what God needs is for people to be perfect. But we're not. So he uses our imperfections to help all of us learn and grow. But since he never created our imperfections we are each accountable and responsible for sins we commit.

Yet he punishes those who allow us to "learn and grow", how strange. People often are a product of their environment, why not create a nice environment first so that there's significantly less need for selfish and sociopathic behavour?
Finally, define "perfect" in the context of a human being's personality - what would one of these perfect humans be like?

 

[Thanda]

As in, they are able to travel to both destinations so long as they agree to follow the laws of each area?

Precisely

How could "I" have consented to something that happened before "I" even existed and formed a human personality?

From the Book of Abraham in Chapter 3 (This is the Lord speaking to Abraham):

18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.​

And again, later in the same chapter:

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences (you and me) that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.​

There's a difference between working hard, and working in an inefficient, counter-productive manner. There is also an element of malice involved when his ineffecient and clumsy work causes untold needless suffering and premature deaths to countless individuals.

It is your opinion that God is working inefficiently. But until you create you own world and use it to save your own people forgive me if I don't buy it.

Yet he punishes those who allow us to "learn and grow", how strange. People often are a product of their environment, why not create a nice environment first so that there's significantly less need for selfish and sociopathic behavour?
Finally, define "perfect" in the context of a human being's personality - what would one of these perfect humans be like?

Yes. Because they should not be occupying themselves with being a nuisance to others in order to help them grow. They should be occupying themselves with keeping the commandments of God or at least living as close to the truth that has been revealed to them as they know how. They should occupy themselves with becoming perfect. The devil and his angels as well as the general mishaps of life could easily make up for the loss of opposition God would have if everyone minded their own business of being righteous.

Yet he punishes those who allow us to "learn and grow", how strange. People often are a product of their environment, why not create a nice environment first so that there's significantly less need for selfish and sociopathic behavour?

That is precisely what he did if you'll remember "The Garden of Eden". But he is not going to recreate the earth for every new generation so that each one has a perfect world to get into to.

Finally, define "perfect" in the context of a human being's personality - what would one of these perfect humans be like?

Jesus answered it best: "Therefore, what manner of men aught ye to be? Verily I same unto you, even as I am" 3 Nephi 27:27

 

[Thanda]

As in, they are able to travel to both destinations so long as they agree to follow the laws of each area?

May I just add that he would not only just agree. He would actually have to start living those laws first and prove that he is able to. They he can move. Just like Satan was not cast out of heaven because he said he would rebel. He was cast out because he did rebel.

 

[Aquitaine]

May I just add that he would not only just agree. He would actually have to start living those laws first and prove that he is able to. They he can move. Just like Satan was not cast out of heaven because he said he would rebel. He was cast out because he did rebel.

Ergo the "test" can still take place after death, and therefore further renders your belief that "life is the test" redundant. What's the point in having life be a "test" if after the test you can still get into Heaven/Hell if you change your behavour and act accordingly?

Honestly I'm getting tired of debating this bizarre and backwards belief system. The whole concept contradicts itself, posits a malicious and/or incompetant creator, and to top it off has absolutely no credible evidence to support itself.

I think me and you will just not see eye-to-eye on this issue, our positions are practically opposites.

 

[Thanda]

Ergo the "test" can still take place after death, and therefore further renders your belief that "life is the test" redundant. What's the point in having life be a "test" if after the test you can still get into Heaven/Hell if you change your behavour and act accordingly?

Because that hypothetical situation will never actually happen. God's final judgement will not be in error. He will not send someone to hell at Judgement day who he knows will one day repent. His Judgement will be perfect. It will encompass not only what you have done, but you thoughts intentions and desires. There will be no mistake.

Honestly I'm getting tired of debating this bizarre and backwards belief system. The whole concept contradicts itself, posits a malicious and/or incompetant creator, and to top it off has absolutely no credible evidence to support itself.

"I was wondering what would break first: your spirit....or your body"

 

[Aquitaine]

Because that hypothetical situation will never actually happen. God's final judgement will not be in error. He will not send someone to hell at Judgement day who he knows will one day repent. His Judgement will be perfect. It will encompass not only what you have done, but you thoughts intentions and desires. There will be no mistake.

Isn't that a contradiction of the following(?):

People can change but people usually don't God knows into which category each person belongs. The doors of heaven and hell are always open. Nobody who is in Heaven is forced to stay there and no one in hell is forced to stay there either. Evidence of this can be seen from the fact that the devil who was in heaven moved from there to hell.

In Doctrine and Covenants 88 we have the following:
36 All kingdoms have a law given;

37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.

38 And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.

39 All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified.
So anyone who finds himself in hell is welcome to come to heaven if the can live the law of heaven. Therefore those who will find themselves in heaven or hell will be there because the laws they were willing to live. God can't exactly promise people heaven and then turn around and allow liars and such into that same place.

"I was wondering what would break first: your spirit....or your body"

Well, you try dealing with people who use contradictory belief systems as the basis of their arguements.

 

[Thanda]

Isn't that a contradiction of the following(?):

Of course not. I know this may be hard to understand but just because something can happen it does not mean will happen.

 

[Aquitaine]

Of course not. I know this may be hard to understand but just because something can happen it does not mean will happen.

Where there's a will there's a way.

 

[Thanda]

Where there's a will there's a way.

Indeed . That is why we are warned about our actions. When you tell one lie it becomes difficult to tell the truth next time. The more lies you tell the more difficult it becomes to tell the truth. The time may eventually come when you can no longer recognize the lies from the truth.

I'll leave you with this scripture from the Book of Alma 34:

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.​