Ohio anti-abortion bill

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Thank you for a thoughtful and a love-filled response to the very complex and emotional issue.

I try, with the usual very human lack of consistent success.

I think the OP was over-the-top that painted religious people into a box. I tend to do the same to accentuate the ridiculousness of that type of OP.

But I think it unfair to just select New Mexico when the issue is that there are laws that are extreme in other states where 9 months abortions are permitted by law.

This is hard for me to say, but I honestly think that I would not have a huge problem if my government passed a law that outlawed third trimester abortions except for the most crucial of reasons, requiring independent medical consensus.

That certainly is a difficult position. I don't think anybody has a problem of saving the life of the mother. Does that mean that you must extinguish the life of the child? Sometimes yes and sometimes no.

Yes, sometimes it does mean yes. But I sincerely wish you (and others) could stop always using the word "child." A few undifferentiated cells attaching themselves to the uterus is not a child. (That was hyperbole...nobody knows they're pregnant at this stage, so nobody's seeking abortion, with the possible exception of the so-called abortion pill which some use as "insurance.")

Yes, it is a very emotional subject and one would obviously have different viewpoints. We have a saying, however, when emotions run high, intelligence runs low.

So let's take rape... found this-- I'm sure it is not complete:

The following small list of people were conceived by force in rape. Eartha Kitt (singer). Rev. Jesse Jackson (political activist). Layne Beachley (7-time World Surfing Champion). Kelly Wright (FOX news reporter). Faith Daniels (former NBC reporter). Nell Carter (singer/actress). Janet Sheen (actress/producer & mother of Charlie Sheen & Emilio Estevez). Ethel Waters (singer/actress). Valerie Gatto (Mrs. Pennsylvania). Frederick Douglass (orator/statesman). James Robison (televangelist). Ryan Bomberger (educator).

So, is a baby birthed through rape any less of a person? I wonder if they (those who were birthed) would agree that they should have been aborted. I don't think so. Was the mothers any less able to live because they had a baby that was through a rape? Probably not. The scars are there whether they have a baby or not.

Ken, have you noticed who you are ignoring here? You are ignoring the women who were raped, and what their feeling on the matter is. That so many women who have been raped, including your own examples, have chosen to carry to term, and even to bring up the child in a loving home, is wonderful, and I applaud them with all my heart. But I cannot find it within me to fault the girl or woman who cannot do that, who cannot bring herself to face 9 months of having this "unwanted intrusion" foist upon her, only to bring it forth in pain...and then have to decide what to do with it.

Are you sure you know enough to speak for them? Are you sure that their psychological pain is not just as real, and just as terrible, as any physical torture? I'm not, and in the end, I am forced to leave it to them to decide, not to me.

Then, we have those babies who are birthed under normal circumstance and still go through a terrible life. My wife, for an example. Yet she is now a life-impacting woman.

And well and good for her, that does indeed happen. I too, although no angel, am not a bad influence on those around me. But again I point out to you, this is an imperfect world, and not all outcomes are the same...and there's nothing that you or I can do about it. Therefore, there's no reason for you or I to be part of the decision.

Yes... that is always a need. Life can be tough. Let me ask you a question... would you have preferred not being birthed?

Ken, this is a nonsense question...it is not well thought out, and it is effectively meaningless. If I "would have preferred not being birthed," then I might very likely have committed suicide, which I have not. I am, in fact very content with the fact that I exist, and am grateful for my life.

But the reason that the question is nonsense is that you are asking me, an existing person, what I would think about not existing. Yet, had I been aborted, I would not exist, and there would therefore not be any me to contemplate the question, for good or ill.

 

[FragrantGrace]

Sounds like nonsense to me.
Abortion critics wrong on effect of NY law

You'd learn a lot if you read the Sorry Snopes.... linked article.

 

[FragrantGrace]

Some Thursday just go down wind for politeness, I'm afraid.

These nutters who demand extreme and total prolife never ever agree to pay up for whole life medicare and sustenance for folks born disabled. And they never support Medicare and allowances for all children to adulthood.

Prolife?

It's hypocrisy.

Oops.... It's Thursday!
Some Thursdays I just forget

If the nutter pro-lifers committed as much money and time to taking care of life born homeless as they do to attack women's reproductive rights, unwanted babies would have a chance at a quality of life. And pro-lifers would look like they are all about life. Rather than being pro-forced pregnancy by law.
The hypocrisy also mounts when many pro-life people are pro-death penalty.
All for controlling life in the womb. But when a baby grows up and is found guilty of a capital offense, kill 'em, doesn't make for a well rounded moral identity.

Oh, and they don't publish the names and addresses of abortion providers on their pro-life websites either. So that the armed crazies can kill a doctor in the name of pro-life! Operation Rescue published such a list some time ago. To my knowledge this resulted in at least one murder of a doctor on that list.

 

[dianaiad]

Biology major in College-- a subject (biology) you have repeatedly demonstrated you have no clue about. Oh well.



Like.... say... eating. Or breathing... or sleeping? Those sort of things?

Because those are activities-- even though you 100% ignore that, which I pointed out eariler...

Which 100% ruins your complaint that uncooked batter == cupcakes to a pro-birther.

And that is what you are: Pro Birth.

You are not pro life. I've seen how your group operates, and it's one of the main lobbies to get rid of any and all welfare/help services.

Anti-planned parenthood too-- IRONIC.

Planned Parenthood-- with it's myriad of counseling and contraceptive services?

PLANNED PARENTHOOD DOES MORE TO ELIMINATE ABORTIONS THAN THE ENTIRE SUM OF ALL THE ANTI-ABORTION CROWD, ANYWHERE. BY GIVING WOMEN OPTIONS, AND KNOWLEDGE ON HOW TO NOT GET PREGNANT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Yet.... anti-abortionists are AGAINST them!

BOTTOM LINE: YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT PREVENTING ABORTIONS BY PROVIDING BETTER OPTIONS.

YOU JUST WANT TO FORCE WOMEN TO GIVE BIRTH-- NO MATTER WHAT.

Goodness...and I have been accused of ranting!

I am not a member of any anti-abortion group. You don't know anything about me except for what I write in here, and you have decided what I am, what I think, what I do and what I believe in.

It would be wise of you not to do that.

As for "eating, breathing, etc.,' a woman does those things anyway to keep HERSELF alive. She doesn't have to do anything different to keep the pregnancy going than she would to simply live another day, herself. Your argument, therefore, is specious.

My niece's first child was born a month early. Her baby was fine...she didn't have to stay more than a day extra, and she has developed well. However, for the pregnancy she now has, she has had to go to the doctor every week to get an injection of something that will keep her from going into labor early and losing the baby.

THAT would be classed, I believe, as having to do something in order to keep the pregnancy going, but few women have to do that. In the vast majority of pregnancies, women do not have to do anything to keep the baby; the only change that they can make to the growing fetus is a harmful one; to kill it, to deliberately take things that might harm it...whatever.

For you to call eating or breathing an active choice to keep the pregnancy going? Good heavens. That's really reaching.

Oh, and I did not call cake batter 'cupcakes.' I'm the one who said they couldn't be cupcakes unless the cook actively and deliberately baked them, took them out in time, cooled and frosted them. THEN they are cupcakes...the comparison of batter to cupcakes (which is made by the pro-abortion group, NOT pro-life groups) is ridiculous. A woman doesn't have to pay any active attention at all to a pregnancy in order for it to be viable and proceed to birth. The only active choice she had to make, in consensual sex, was to have that sex in the first place. The rest is biology. A woman in a coma can have a pregnancy carry through to birth, for crying out loud.

your argument, then, fails.

And your opinion of me is completely beside the point, not to mention rude. I haven't shouted at you, after all.

 

[FragrantGrace]

Can we have a link to that info please? An honest link would be nice.

But the Thread is about Ohio banning a lot of medical contraception and most abortions, and the thing that shows me how little such leaders really care is that there is No provision for free whole life medicare and financial support for all persons born with disabilities, and No free medicare, benefit assistance and education for all minors.

Would you support the full provision of the above for all children and whole-life provision for any persons born disabled? ............. funded from your tax-dollars?

Yes...... or No?

No Snopes.... article was already posted.

 

[FragrantGrace]

As well as the other side:

Below are FIVE places where women can get abortions through the NINTH MONTH of pregnancy, RIGHT NOW!

1. Southwestern Women’s Options, Albuquerque, New Mexico
Abortionists: Shelley Sella, Susan Robinson, Carmen Landau, Curtis Boyd, Emily Rothman
New Mexico is the “Wild West” for late-term abortionists because there are essentially no laws restricting the practice or regulating it. This facility is the largest late-term abortion facility in the U.S. It uses the Induction Abortion technique for most late-term abortions, which is a modified “partial birth abortion” procedure. Documentation exists that provide details of a severely botched 35-week abortion there in 2011, which ruptured the uterus of the patient.

2. Boulder Abortion Clinic, Boulder, Colorado
Owned and operated by Warren Hern
Like New Mexico, Colorado law allows for abortions through all nine months of pregnancy. Hern has written text books on abortion and even invented new abortion instruments over his long career. According to a Federal Court lawsuit filed in Colorado, one patient suffered a horrific THIRD TRIMESTER dismemberment abortion complication in 2013, wherein a four-centimeter slightly curved section of bone from her aborted baby’s skull was left inside her and became imbedded in her uterus. She may never bear another child.

3. Women’s Med Center, Dayton, Ohio
Owned and operated by Martin Haskell
Haskell has been credited with inventing the partial birth abortion procedure, although that claim is in dispute. Haskell’s abortion facility has had a number of documented botched abortions. Most recently, information surfaced that his facility conducted a forced late-term abortion on a woman who was incapable of consenting. He has had issues maintaining his abortion facility license since he cannot qualify for a hospital transfer agreement as required by law. He currently operates under a variance that allows him an exemption from the transfer agreement requirement.

4. Pro-Choice Medical Center, Beverly Hills, California
Owned and operated by Josepha Seletz
Seletz uses the Induction Abortion method for very late-term abortions, which she will gladly do in the event of a “fetal anomaly.” She boasts of being “the most experienced abortion provider in the Western United States.”

5. Germantown Reproductive Health Services, Germantown, Maryland
Abortionist: LeRoy Carhart
While late-term abortions are inherently more risky than the first trimester variety, LeRoy Carhart is among the worst late-term abortionists in the nation. He is responsible for the deaths of two late-term abortion patients: Jennifer Morbelli, 29, who died of complications to a 33-week abortion on February 7, 2013, and Christin Gilbert, 19, who died from a third trimester Carhart abortion in Kansas in 2005. Numerous life-threatening botched abortionshave characterized the past few years of his career. Carhart has been subpoenaed by the House Select Panel on Infant Lives, which suspects Carhart has illegally trafficked in aborted baby body parts and had babies born alive at his abortion facility.

WE HAVE STOP ELECTING THESE BRAINLESS OFFICIALS THAT ENACT THESE LAWS!

Hillary Clinton supports late term abortion. And she was a senator of New York.But not when the NY legislature passed the infanticide abortion law. Hillary Clinton – Late-Term-Abortion Supporter | National Review

While Donald Trump is pro-life.

 

[dianaiad]

Biology major in College-- a subject (biology) you have repeatedly demonstrated you have no clue about. Oh well.



Like.... say... eating. Or breathing... or sleeping? Those sort of things?

Because those are activities-- even though you 100% ignore that, which I pointed out eariler...

Which 100% ruins your complaint that uncooked batter == cupcakes to a pro-birther.

And that is what you are: Pro Birth.

I am anti-abortion for convenience or as a 'we don't need to worry about birth control because there's always abortion' advocate.

I don't belong to any group.

I'm FOR the knowledgeable and consistent use of birth control: all forms of it that prevent conception. I'm FOR a woman having the choice to do what she wishes with her own body...but those choices become constrained when another human being comes into existence. THEN the rules, I believe, are the same as for what she can do when her life is in danger from another human. If her life is in danger, then she has the right to abort. If the baby is so damaged that s/he cannot survive outside her body even when the pregnancy is full term (such as, oh,an encephalitic...) then as tragic as the choice is, she should have the right to abort without the law coming down on her.

I am absolutely against abortion because someone was too lazy to properly use birth control, who went into consensual sex knowing full well that sex causes babies, and figures that her few minutes of jollies was more important than a human life. I am against abortion because of 'ooops.' or 'I changed my mind."

As for not doing things for those who are born, just who do you think you are talking to? I have a daughter who has been trying to adopt a child for nearly twenty years. She has had FIFTEEN miscarriages and one baby who lived for a whole three hours. She would love to give a loving home to an unwanted child. There aren't any out there for her.

I really don't think you want to talk to her about this issue. She is, well....not empathetic to women who blithely end their pregnancies 'just because.'

Neither am I.

you don't want a baby? Fine. Do what is required to prevent one BEFORE you choose to have sex. If you have sex and 'lose' (or win?) the gamble, don't whine. That's a human life in there...one that is not a fingernail paring you can toss in the trash. S/he is different from you; unique in the world.

There's a saying...'your right to swing your fist ends at the beginning of my nose.' Women who abort because it's 'fashionable,' or 'oops, I didn't really mean that..." are killing the only true innocent involved. And no, I don't like that.

That does NOT mean I want to force women to give birth 'no matter what." There are, of course, legitimate reasons for abortion. The vast majority of abortions, however, are done just because of convenience: the pregnancy/baby is not convenient, so....buh bye.

yeah. That's wrong. Doesn't mean I'll go blow up abortion clinics and kill doctors, though.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

While Donald Trump is pro-life.

Yeah, as much as he is a Christian.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Goodness...and I have been accused of ranting!

and that's as far as I could stomach....

 

[oldbadger]

Yes ,you're right.
And they'll probably say Yes to that too( if politically expedient), but it won't happen either.
Tom

But strong Christians on extreme Christian forums rant and rave about how their tax-dollars are wasted, thus.

These Republicans in Ohio, they must be some other religion if they support such welfare for disabled and all minors.

 

[oldbadger]

If the nutter pro-lifers committed as much money and time to taking care of life born homeless as they do to attack women's reproductive rights, unwanted babies would have a chance at a quality of life. And pro-lifers would look like they are all about life. Rather than being pro-forced pregnancy by law.

Absolutely.

The hypocrisy also mounts when many pro-life people are pro-death penalty.

I'm surprised at thre more extreme Christians who want public executions for their cherry-picked OT law infringements. They make Sharia Law look reasonable.

All for controlling life in the womb. But when a baby grows up and is found guilty of a capital offense, kill 'em, doesn't make for a well rounded moral identity.

While there should be an early deadline for termination decisions, nobody has the right to control any woman's womb.

Oh, and they don't publish the names and addresses of abortion providers on their pro-life websites either. So that the armed crazies can kill a doctor in the name of pro-life! Operation Rescue published such a list some time ago. To my knowledge this resulted in at least one murder of a doctor on that list.

Yes.
Anybody who exposes anybody to attack or criminal damage should get banged up behind bars.

 

[oldbadger]

No Snopes.... article was already posted.

.... but you could not tell me which post number?

I cannot wait to read that a bunch of extremist idiots who demand almost total prolife, also banning many contraceptive medications has assured the State of Ohio that all those born disabled will be provided with whole-life medicare and assistance by law. Also that all children and minors will receive full medicare, education and allowances to adulthood. Can't wait.

You see......... I just do not believe that you can link me to such a promise.

Snopes.......

 

[SkepticThinker]

You'd learn a lot if you read the Sorry Snopes.... linked article.

I read it and it's still nonsense.

I didn't get too far into that article, when I read this:

"If they were honest, however, they would admit what everyone familiar with Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton has understood for 46 years: There is no practical time or medical limit to the abortion on demand regime created in 1973 by the U.S. Supreme Court in those two cases."

Which anyone who actually knows Roe v. Wade knows is nonsense, given that the Roe v. Wade ruling made specific reference to fetal viability, which was deemed to occur between the 24th and 28th weeks of pregnancy, which is to be determined by a woman's doctor, on a case-by-case basis.

If the article got that fundamental fact wrong, sorry, but I'm not going to bother reading the rest of it.

 

[FragrantGrace]

I read it and it's still nonsense.

I didn't get too far into that article, when I read this:

"If they were honest, however, they would admit what everyone familiar with Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton has understood for 46 years: There is no practical time or medical limit to the abortion on demand regime created in 1973 by the U.S. Supreme Court in those two cases."

Which anyone who actually knows Roe v. Wade knows is nonsense, given that the Roe v. Wade ruling made specific reference to fetal viability, which was deemed to occur between the 24th and 28th weeks of pregnancy, which is to be determined by a woman's doctor, on a case-by-case basis.

If the article got that fundamental fact wrong, sorry, but I'm not going to bother reading the rest of it.

So you were false when you said you read it. Because you later say you didn't get that far. OK.

 

[FragrantGrace]

.... but you could not tell me which post number?

I cannot wait to read that a bunch of extremist idiots who demand almost total prolife, also banning many contraceptive medications has assured the State of Ohio that all those born disabled will be provided with whole-life medicare and assistance by law. Also that all children and minors will receive full medicare, education and allowances to adulthood. Can't wait.

You see......... I just do not believe that you can link me to such a promise.

Snopes.......

OK.

 

[SkepticThinker]

So you were false when you said you read it. Because you later say you didn't get that far. OK.

I read it. It's not very long. Care to address what I said about it?

 

[FragrantGrace]

...

I'm surprised at thre more extreme Christians who want public executions for their cherry-picked OT law infringements. They make Sharia Law look reasonable.

You don't know much about Sharia.
And the extremists in any religion make unfortunately the entire practice look bad and by their example.

While there should be an early deadline for termination decisions, nobody has the right to control any woman's womb.

Agreed. It is her conscience. Personally, I am against later term, third trimester, abortion. I think a woman who wants to abort in the late third trimester should be put under, her baby delivered, and her clinic or hospital intake form contained language that insured her parental rights were fully terminated the moment she asked for her full term baby to be killed in utero.
Then when she wakes up, no baby. Just like she wanted.

Yes.
Anybody who exposes anybody to attack or criminal damage should get banged up behind bars.

Operation Rescue is the hard right hyper extreme nutter bunch. Not pro-life in the least. They're domestic terrorists.

 

[FragrantGrace]

Yeah, as much as he is a Christian.

Trump is far more Christian than you.
God knows his own. Atheists have nothing to say because they are fools, according to scripture. And God does not know them.

 

[FragrantGrace]

.... but you could not tell me which post number?

I cannot wait to read that a bunch of extremist idiots who demand almost total prolife, also banning many contraceptive medications has assured the State of Ohio that all those born disabled will be provided with whole-life medicare and assistance by law. Also that all children and minors will receive full medicare, education and allowances to adulthood. Can't wait.

You see......... I just do not believe that you can link me to such a promise.

Snopes.......

Here's the article. Again.
Please don't be one of those, "I read it", but you really didn't because you admit you didn't read it after a very short time. Falsehoods don't help mature conversations proceed.

Sorry Snopes, But New York’s Abortion Law Means on Demand Any Time Before Birth

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Trump is far more Christian than you.
God knows his own. Atheists have nothing to say because they are fools, according to scripture. And God does not know them.

Er, I'm not a Christian and don't even claim to be. I'm not an atheist, either, so your dumb attempt to insult me on that basis falls flat. Maybe actually read my profile to ascertain my religion. But you're hilarious. I suspect this is a parody account.