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Ok, I've had it with OWS

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2788206-post260.html

Sorry Kathryn, I was just trying to give you the opportunity to clarify whether the "known destructive protests and riots" were OWS related or not.

Here is a list of modern riot in the US.
List of race riots - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There is only one riot that implicates Oakland and that was 2009 and the police started that one, so....again, where is the hot bed of protests and riots in Oakland that you are referring to.

Oakland, California - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

By 1966, only 16 of the city's 661 police officers were black. Tensions between the black community and the largely white police force were high, and police malfeasance against blacks was common.[39][46] The Black Panther Party was founded by Oakland City College (later Merritt College) students Huey Newton and Bobby Seale .[47]
It was also during the 1960s that the Oakland Chapter of the Hells Angels Motorcycle Club began to grow into a formidable motorcycle gang and organized crime syndicate.[48][49] Its Oakland Clubhouse is still on Foothill Boulevard.
During the 1970s, Oakland began to experience serious problems with gang-controlled dealing of heroin and cocaine when drug kingpin Felix Mitchell created the nation's first large-scale operation of this kind.[38] Both violent crime and property crime increased during this period, and Oakland's murder rate rose to twice that of New York and many other major cities.[38]
In late 1973, the Symbionese Liberation Army assassinated Oakland's superintendent of schools, Dr. Marcus Foster, and badly wounded his deputy, Robert Blackburn. Two months later, two men were arrested and charged with the murder. Both received life sentences, though one was acquitted after an appeal and a retrial seven years later.[citation needed]


During the 1980s, crack cocaine became a serious problem in Oakland.

On May 24, 1990, a pipe bomb placed underneath traveling eco-activist Judi Bari's car seat exploded, tearing through her backside and nearly killing her. The bomb was placed directly under the driver's seat, not in the back seat or luggage area as it presumably would have been if Bari had been transporting it knowingly. Immediately after the 1990 car bombing, while Bari was in Oakland's Highland Hospital, she and a friend were arrested on suspicion of knowingly transporting the bomb. The Alameda County district attorney later dropped the case for lack of evidence, and in 2004 the FBI and the City of Oakland agreed to a $4 million settlement of a lawsuit brought by Bari's estate, and her friend, over their false arrest.[50]

In the early morning hours of January 1, 2009, unarmed civilian Oscar Grant was shot and killed by BART police officer Johannes Mehserle on a crowded platform at the Fruitvale BART Station in East Oakland.[63] Officers had subdued Grant in a prone position for allegedly resisting arrest, before Mehserle shot Grant in the back with his gun, which he claimed to have mistaken for his stun gun.[64] In the ensuing week, demonstrations and riots took place in downtown Oakland, with demonstrators citing police brutality and racial injustice as their motivation.[65] Mehserle was convicted of involuntary manslaughter in July 2010, and sentenced to two years in prison. Both the verdict and sentencing set off further demonstrations in downtown Oakland, which included looting and destruction of property.[66][67]

On March 21, 2009, Oakland parolee Lovelle Mixon, 26, fatally shot four Oakland police officers, and wounded a fifth officer. At approximately 1 pm, Mixon shot and killed two officers during a routine traffic stop. Mixon fled the scene, hiding in his sister's nearby apartment, and shortly after 3 pm he killed two more officers. During the ensuing shootout, the police killed Mixon in self-defense and a fifth officer was wounded. Three of the officers killed were ranking sergeants, the first time the Oakland Police Department had lost a sergeant in the line of duty. It was the single deadliest day for sworn personnel in the department's history.[70]

On October 10, 2011, protesters and civic activists began "Occupy Oakland" demonstrations directed against national social and economic inequality at Frank Ogawa Plaza in Downtown Oakland.[71][72] The demonstrators set up an encampment which at one point consisted of "a miniature city" with as many as 150 tents.[73][74] At one point, a second encampment was established at Snow Park on Lake Merritt.[75] Oakland Police raided and dismantled the two protest sites at Frank Ogawa Plaza and Snow Park early in the morning on October 25. Later the same day, in efforts to reestablish the encampments, protesters clashed with police. Two officers and three protesters were injured and more than a hundred people were arrested.[76] On November 2, thousands marched upon and shut down the Port of Oakland.[77] Later that night, protests in downtown Oakland turned violent, with demonstrators vandalizing local businesses, overtaking a vacant building, and throwing projectiles at police.[78] At least two Iraqi war veterans were injured in the demonstrations, allegedly by police action.[79] On November 10, a man was shot and killed near the reestablished encampment.[80] By November 14, the encampment at the plaza in front of City Hall had been cleared, and it was announced by city officials the continued protests had cost the city $2.4 million.[81]
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
Oakland, California - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

By 1966, only 16 of the city's 661 police officers were black. Tensions between the black community and the largely white police force were high, and police malfeasance against blacks was common.[39][46] The Black Panther Party was founded by Oakland City College (later Merritt College) students Huey Newton and Bobby Seale .[47]
It was also during the 1960s that the Oakland Chapter of the Hells Angels Motorcycle Club began to grow into a formidable motorcycle gang and organized crime syndicate.[48][49] Its Oakland Clubhouse is still on Foothill Boulevard.
During the 1970s, Oakland began to experience serious problems with gang-controlled dealing of heroin and cocaine when drug kingpin Felix Mitchell created the nation's first large-scale operation of this kind.[38] Both violent crime and property crime increased during this period, and Oakland's murder rate rose to twice that of New York and many other major cities.[38]
In late 1973, the Symbionese Liberation Army assassinated Oakland's superintendent of schools, Dr. Marcus Foster, and badly wounded his deputy, Robert Blackburn. Two months later, two men were arrested and charged with the murder. Both received life sentences, though one was acquitted after an appeal and a retrial seven years later.[citation needed]


During the 1980s, crack cocaine became a serious problem in Oakland.

On May 24, 1990, a pipe bomb placed underneath traveling eco-activist Judi Bari's car seat exploded, tearing through her backside and nearly killing her. The bomb was placed directly under the driver's seat, not in the back seat or luggage area as it presumably would have been if Bari had been transporting it knowingly. Immediately after the 1990 car bombing, while Bari was in Oakland's Highland Hospital, she and a friend were arrested on suspicion of knowingly transporting the bomb. The Alameda County district attorney later dropped the case for lack of evidence, and in 2004 the FBI and the City of Oakland agreed to a $4 million settlement of a lawsuit brought by Bari's estate, and her friend, over their false arrest.[50]

In the early morning hours of January 1, 2009, unarmed civilian Oscar Grant was shot and killed by BART police officer Johannes Mehserle on a crowded platform at the Fruitvale BART Station in East Oakland.[63] Officers had subdued Grant in a prone position for allegedly resisting arrest, before Mehserle shot Grant in the back with his gun, which he claimed to have mistaken for his stun gun.[64] In the ensuing week, demonstrations and riots took place in downtown Oakland, with demonstrators citing police brutality and racial injustice as their motivation.[65] Mehserle was convicted of involuntary manslaughter in July 2010, and sentenced to two years in prison. Both the verdict and sentencing set off further demonstrations in downtown Oakland, which included looting and destruction of property.[66][67]

On March 21, 2009, Oakland parolee Lovelle Mixon, 26, fatally shot four Oakland police officers, and wounded a fifth officer. At approximately 1 pm, Mixon shot and killed two officers during a routine traffic stop. Mixon fled the scene, hiding in his sister's nearby apartment, and shortly after 3 pm he killed two more officers. During the ensuing shootout, the police killed Mixon in self-defense and a fifth officer was wounded. Three of the officers killed were ranking sergeants, the first time the Oakland Police Department had lost a sergeant in the line of duty. It was the single deadliest day for sworn personnel in the department's history.[70]

On October 10, 2011, protesters and civic activists began "Occupy Oakland" demonstrations directed against national social and economic inequality at Frank Ogawa Plaza in Downtown Oakland.[71][72] The demonstrators set up an encampment which at one point consisted of "a miniature city" with as many as 150 tents.[73][74] At one point, a second encampment was established at Snow Park on Lake Merritt.[75] Oakland Police raided and dismantled the two protest sites at Frank Ogawa Plaza and Snow Park early in the morning on October 25. Later the same day, in efforts to reestablish the encampments, protesters clashed with police. Two officers and three protesters were injured and more than a hundred people were arrested.[76] On November 2, thousands marched upon and shut down the Port of Oakland.[77] Later that night, protests in downtown Oakland turned violent, with demonstrators vandalizing local businesses, overtaking a vacant building, and throwing projectiles at police.[78] At least two Iraqi war veterans were injured in the demonstrations, allegedly by police action.[79] On November 10, a man was shot and killed near the reestablished encampment.[80] By November 14, the encampment at the plaza in front of City Hall had been cleared, and it was announced by city officials the continued protests had cost the city $2.4 million.[81]

I know Oakland is a rough and tough city, I'll give you that. But so are many cities in the US. The problem with your reference is that it doesn't show Oakland to be a protest or riot prone city.

Furthermore, the drug problems that have plague this city and others in California and elsewhere are, in part, the result of:

Secret ties between CIA, drugs revealed
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I know Oakland is a rough and tough city, I'll give you that. But so are many cities in the US. The problem with your reference is that it doesn't show Oakland to be a protest or riot prone city.

Wow. I disagree. So I guess we're at an impasse.
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member

Ok, here we go..

The Conservative's Guide to the 'Occupy Wall Street' Protests

1. Implementing an immediate ban on all private contributions of money and gifts, to all politicians in federal office, from Individuals, Corporations, Political Action Committees, Super Political Action Committees, Lobbyists, Unions and all other private sources of money to be replaced by the fair and equal public financing of all federal political campaigns. We categorically REJECT the concept that money is equal to free speech because if that were so, then only the wealthiest would have a voice. These actions must be taken because it has become clear that politicians in the United States cannot regulate themselves and have become the exclusive representatives of corporations, unions and the very wealthy who spend vast sums of money on political campaigns to influence the candidates’ decisions and ensure their reelection year after year.

A little history about Hans A. von Spakovsky.
Hans A. von Spakovsky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hans A. von Spakovsky

All of these demands show a woeful ignorance and virtual contempt for rights protected by the Bill of Rights. The First Amendment provides that Congress shall make no law “abridging the freedom of speech” or “the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” That includes the ability to not only speak out on political issues and the merits of candidates for public office, but to spend money on persuading others about the merits of those candidates or helping them get elected through campaign contributions.
The problem of money in politics is that public relations corporations/super-PACs and political campaigns are about presenting an argument and not the bigger picture of the situation. Fair and balanced is not the goal. When a group of large corporations get together their influential media buying power, that far exceeds the the resources of the greater majority of people, who have different views than their counterpart and little or no media buying power. Thus, perverting the true intent of fair representation of all interests at hand.

There's a very informative, albeit 4 long documentary about the beginning of public relations in America and it's ties to Sigmund Freud and his brother-in law Edward Bernays.

[youtube]IyPzGUsYyKM[/youtube]
The Century Of The Self-Full Length Documentary - YouTube

Hans A. von Spakovsky
Americans have the right to associate with others who share their beliefs, and thus freedom of speech is not limited to just individuals, but also to the many other forms in which American associate from unions to corporations to organizations like the NAACP, the Sierra Club, or the National Rifle Association. These proposals are unconstitutional attempts to limit the ability of Americans to associate with others or to petition and otherwise lobby the government on many important public policy issues. The OWS protesters are themselves benefiting from the right to associate that they now seek to deny to others.
The only thing the OWSers are trying to deny is the influence that money has on an elected official via lobbying and excessive campaign contributions. Any one of these group can write a letter to there officials and present their case, just as citizen can.

Here's some background regarding campaign finance reform.
Campaign finance in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hans A. von Spakovsky
A public funding program for all candidates for Congress and the Presidency also would violate basic First Amendment associational protections. The high costs of modern congressional and presidential campaigns that are national in scope are such that they could only be funded through taxation. It would be a basic violation of the associational rights of individual Americans for the government to force them through taxation to fund political candidates with whom those American disagree or do not support. The federal government does not have the power to force American citizens to fund the campaigns of political candidates anymore than the government has the power to force them to vote for particular candidates.
Where in the above OWS position, does it address "public funding program for all candidates for Congress and the Presidency"? This is a straw man.

As for the high cost of media coverage, that can be solved by providing fair debates via C-SPAN. No smear commercials, just honest debate over the issues.

Hans A. von Spakovsky
The framers of the Constitution were right to protect political and other forms of speech from government censorship, since they understood from history that freedom of speech, as well as the right to associate and the ability to petition the government, are key anchors of liberty. For some reason, the OWS protestors despise these First Amendment rights, wanting to deny them to those with whom they disagree politically. We wonder what other constitutional rights they would try to eliminate as soon as they get rid of the First Amendment
I had to chuckle a bit on this one. First of all, my great ancestor George Mason wrote the Bill of Rights to protect us from a rogue government, but unfortunately, not from rogue private organizations and their practices.

and again, the OWS movement is not trying to deny any First Amendment Rights. As a matter of fact, we are only trying to defend ours and yes, yours.

Point number two starts tomorrow.
 
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Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
If not accepting referenced facts is an impasse, far be it form me to convince you otherwise.

You know what's sort of ridiculous about this debate between us? I am not even debating about OWS. All I said was that the city of OAKLAND has a history of violent riots and protests and that is a very big factor when it comes to police presence during protests and riots.

This IS a fact. I supported this assertion with sources and details.

And you have the temerity to claim that it's me not accepting referenced facts!

Pick your battles, man.

Here are some videos and photos of the peaceloving people of Oakland protesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BV6DKZrpac0&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygN6ycg9Zxs&feature=player_embedded

AP111025131306-620x414.jpg


spaceball.gif


spaceball.gif


occupy-wall-street-oakland-riots-turns-violent-george-soros.jpg


la-riot6.jpg


ows-occupy-oakland-5.jpg


MH_oaklandsuperbowl_12.jpg


Yeah, we don't need no ******* pigs standing over us, now, do we?
 
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work in progress

Well-Known Member
Oh my - true dat. You hit the nail on the head.

Back to Jeremy's question:

The city of Oakland is a hotbed of violence and known for it's destructive protests and street riots. A strong police presence is a "necessary evil" in Oakland. The people of that city have brought that upon themselves.
Spoken like a true totalitarian! And why is that "strong police presence a necessary evil" in Oakland, but not in your neighbourhood? Is it because they're mostly brown people?

There are always deeper, underlying factors in any dystopian society that starts unraveling, and blaming the problems on race, laziness, welfare, drugs, lack of family values, or whatever excuse libertarians want to offer up to justify the present system, are only going to appeal to a smaller and smaller demographic of people who still think the system can work for them.

Over recent decades, a system of aggressive law enforcement and prisons has been used to keep ghettos from flaring up into becoming a danger to the wider community -- but what happens when more and more younger people start realizing that no American Dream is going to find them well-paying jobs and freedom from their university debts?

A society that kicks the rewards up to the top of the income ladder, and devotes most benefits to older people, will be seen as something to fight against....especially as more and more people are realizing that the political process is under the control of those with money and power.

And all this is in a country that is armed to the teeth, and has thousands of returning war veterans suffering from PTSD and insufficient services to help them try to readjust to civilian life. It's a powderkeg just waiting to go off, and I don't see any sign that anyone in authority (including Obama) is willing to examine how to deal with root problems.

The response has been to turn more power over to the plutocrats, start more foreign conflicts, build more private prisons, and increase the surveillance state to suppress any signs of unrest! How else to explain why, again and again, police all across the U.S. respond to unarmed demonstrators with tear gas and flash grenades -- I expect many who see no gain from these demonstrations to turn up the heat and respond in more violent and forceful ways....I don't know what the results will look like, but it will be worse than having hippies occupying a few parks!
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
No wonder kids can't get jobs these days - they don't even know how to protest correctly. What are all these people learning in college?
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Spoken like a true totalitarian!

I would have responded to the rest of your post, but you lost me right here.

Hint - If you are truly looking for meaningful dialogue, don't alienate the other person with baseless insults. You apparently don't know me very well - I guess you haven't been paying very close attention to my posts on the forum. I am a libertarian and very much in favor of (and concerned for the integrity of) our hard earned freedoms of speech, assembly, and religion, to name a few.

Now - if you're just more concerned with being judgmental and inflammatory, carry on. Just don't expect me to play along.
 

cablescavenger

Well-Known Member
Actually, the younger one didn't claim to be Jewish, you misheard.


Not exactly.

It isn't clear, but having listened again it does appear the young guy might be mimicking what the older guy is saying.
If I am mistaken, then I take it back.

So what is the point of your video, that some dumb kid had a problem with a Jew? because you are surely not implying he is the spokesperson for the movement?
 

HiddenDjinn

Well-Known Member
It's My Birthday!
It isn't clear, but having listened again it does appear the young guy might be mimicking what the older guy is saying.
If I am mistaken, then I take it back.

So what is the point of your video, that some dumb kid had a problem with a Jew? because you are surely not implying he is the spokesperson for the movement?
There are plenty of videos of OWS being antisemitic. Do you really want me to overload with videos to make it appear that OWS's main platform is to get rid of us?
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
You know what's sort of ridiculous about this debate between us? I am not even debating about OWS. All I said was that the city of OAKLAND has a history of violent riots and protests and that is a very big factor when it comes to police presence during protests and riots.

This IS a fact. I supported this assertion with sources and details.

And you have the temerity to claim that it's me not accepting referenced facts!

Pick your battles, man.



la-riot6.jpg

[youtube]NkpHYct9JVA[/youtube]
April Smith - Drop Dead Gorgeous ~ Lyrics in description - YouTube

Kathryn, this is a picture of the LA riots. OHHHH the brians...:sarcastic
Fox newzies are so much fun to pick apart.

Yeah, we don't need no ******* pigs standing over us, now, do we?[/quote] :yes:
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
[youtube]NkpHYct9JVA[/youtube]
April Smith - Drop Dead Gorgeous ~ Lyrics in description - YouTube

Kathryn, this is a picture of the LA riots. OHHHH the brians...:sarcastic
Fox newzies are so much fun to pick apart.

Yeah, we don't need no ******* pigs standing over us, now, do we?
:yes:[/QUOTE]

I don't generally watch Fox News. And what's a "brian?"

Sorry for my mistake, by the way. I was getting my "burning streets of California" pictures mixed up. THESE are from Oakland:

occupy-wall-street-oakland-riots-turns-violent-george-soros.jpg


AP111103017724_620x350.jpg


MH_oaklandsuperbowl_12.jpg


occupy-oakland-stephen-lam-reuters-nov-3-2011.jpg


OWS-Oakland-Fire-Riot1.jpg
 
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