Old gods, new world.

[Revasser]

Hi all,

I'm interested in getting some opinions from the local pagans about how ancient gods fit into the modern world.

Being that there usually isn't any unbroken tradition with the pre-Christian gods that people in the West are now looking back to, what we have to go on are records from a time that was very different to our modern age. The gods, of course, are written about in that context. They are very much linked to nature, the seasons, crops, etc, and societies that bear little resemblance to the societies of today.

So my question is, do you effectively think of the gods as having remained with the same preferences, spheres of influence and such as they are recorded as having in ancient times, or do you consider that as our society and technology has developed, they have "kept up", as it were.

Can Thoth be said to have domain over internet forums? Does Odin watch over the sciences? Is Mercurius the patron of stock brokers?

I'd love to know what you all think.

 

[Luminakisharblaze]

It is all about tapping into the energy that exists with the gods. The energy remains and is evolved with the consciousness of the people who tap into that energy and who seek assistance from those gods. There is an unbroken trail of tradition, it is just that the tradition has not been viewed as mainstream for some time, but there are lines that go all the way back to homo erectus that have passed down the tradition and the gods are still the same. The Divine Collective exists with the same characteristics as they did in the beginning, for they exist outside of time. Rest assured, whatever need their is to fill, their is a Divine energy to fill it.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

The gods are living beings that one can develop a relationship with. Even if there was NO tradition one can still have a real relationship with the gods, like Abrahamics have with theirs. The ancient texts are not inspired guidebooks to go by. We don't look at our gods like that. Our gods did not inspire the ancient texts, their word is in our hearts and comes forth from the relationship we forge with them. The ancient texts are wisdom literature one might use for advice, or dramas in which the ancient people wanted to place the gods as characters. It was a way of acknowledging the gods in life

 

[enchanted_one1975]

The Gods and Goddesses that I worship fit into the modern world the same way They fit into the ancient world. They have not changed and They are still needed. They are also still loved very much. :yes:

 

[Rainbow Mage]

The Gods and Goddesses that I worship fit into the modern world the same way They fit into the ancient world. They have not changed and They are still needed. They are also still loved very much. :yes:

:yes:

 

[Gentoo]

I work more with associations than hard-lined definitions. So a God of hunting can be meditated on to inspire focus, determination... or anything else that would be needed during hunting.

So my question is, do you effectively think of the gods as having remained with the same preferences, spheres of influence and such as they are recorded as having in ancient times, or do you consider that as our society and technology has developed, they have "kept up", as it were.

I think that they've largely remained the same, but some liberties have to be made: times and people change. If a god had a preference for a particular food or drink, but the recipe has been lost.. the modern worshipper has to improvise, substitute or flat out change. Not to mention that the excuse of "the Gods said to destroy your city" doesn't fly so much anymore, so that must change if you want to keep your freedom in this day and age.

 

[Erebus]

I would say that deities can adapt to whatever they like... Thoth may be fascinated by the internet or he could possibly be more interested in clingfilm. I don't know, I haven't asked

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I think the gods have evolved and changed with time too. I don't assume the gods are never changing.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I would say that deities can adapt to whatever they like... Thoth may be fascinated by the internet or he could possibly be more interested in clingfilm. I don't know, I haven't asked

All I know is Djehuty (Thoth) loves books

 

[Revasser]

The Gods and Goddesses that I worship fit into the modern world the same way They fit into the ancient world. They have not changed and They are still needed. They are also still loved very much. :yes:

Given that Egypt was, for its time, a very cosmopolitan, urban civilisation, I can see that they would be an easier fit in many ways.

I can see how Anubis in particular would have a general domain that wouldn't really need updating.

How about, say, fertility gods? How would (if at all), the way one interacts with, for example, those aspects of Isis or Hathor, differ when living in a modern suburban society?

I work more with associations than hard-lined definitions. So a God of hunting can be meditated on to inspire focus, determination... or anything else that would be needed during hunting.

Excellent

That is a very interesting way of looking at it.

I think that they've largely remained the same, but some liberties have to be made: times and people change. If a god had a preference for a particular food or drink, but the recipe has been lost.. the modern worshipper has to improvise, substitute or flat out change. Not to mention that the excuse of "the Gods said to destroy your city" doesn't fly so much anymore, so that must change if you want to keep your freedom in this day and age.

If you had a god who is recording as having particular preferences that aren't applicable or don't exist in the modern era, how would you go about deciding what improvisation or substitute would be appropriate?

 

[enchanted_one1975]

Given that Egypt was, for its time, a very cosmopolitan, urban civilisation, I can see that they would be an easier fit in many ways.

I can see how Anubis in particular would have a general domain that wouldn't really need updating.

How about, say, fertility gods? How would (if at all), the way one interacts with, for example, those aspects of Isis or Hathor, differ when living in a modern suburban society?

Anubis is not the only Deity that I worship. Isis, Thoth, Bastet, Sekhmet, and Tefnut are some other Deities that I worship highly. I look to Them for different things, yet They are still the same types of things that They were looked to for in ancient times. You used the example of fertility Gods. Well Bastet is a fertility Goddess and my fiance and I are trying to have a child. You can bet that Bastet is being asked for help with this. :yes:

 

[Gentoo]

Excellent

That is a very interesting way of looking at it.

Thank you

If you had a god who is recording as having particular preferences that aren't applicable or don't exist in the modern era, how would you go about deciding what improvisation or substitute would be appropriate?

I would try to find out just what the drink/food meant to the God. If it was a type of ambrosia, like Soma, then maybe anything alcoholic would work If that's not available, I would think about what attributes the God has, and make substitutions based on those. For example, in Scott Cunningham's Complete Book of Incense, Oils & Brews, he has a full chapter on substitutions.In it, he took an old Mars incense and updated it.

Old Agrippa Mars Incense
Euphorium (poisonous)
Gum Bdellium (rare)
Gum Armoniak (rare)
Roots of both Hellebors (poisonous)
Loadstone
Sulphur
Myrrh
Brain of cat/Blood of bat (self-explanatory)

New Mars Incense
Tobacco
Copal/Pine resin/Dragon's Blood
Asafoetida
Nettle
Lodestone/Magnet
Sulphur/Club Moss/Asafoetida
Myrrh/Pine resin/Dragon's Blood
Omit or Egg Whit (ancient symbol of life)

Most of those substitutions were based on associations, the tobacco, copal, asafoetida are all associated with Mars and so make good substitutions.

 

[Azakel]

I believe that the gods/goddess changes with time. They are not stuck in a stale loop.
The gods/goddess the way they where 1000 years ago are not the same has today. Well there the same just the evolved with the times.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

The gods aren't never-changing like the Abrahamic idea of god

 

[Rainbow Mage]

The gods can change their minds, get happy, sad, angry, etc.

 

[Alusky]

Well I'm really looking to worship a Greek got that fits with my life stile and way of thinking, as my previous god was not very compatible with who I'm.

I was thinking in Pan, I'm still open for other god/gods if they seem nice and worth to be worshiped by me.

 

[Azakel]

I believe that the gods/goddess changes with time. They are not stuck in a stale loop.
The gods/goddess the way they where 1000 years ago are not the same has today. Well there the same just the evolved with the times.

To add, they change with time because we change with time, nothing stays(or should stay) stale out. Humans evolve and so do the way the gods are. Really if you look at the Pagan Orthodox/recon religions it seem to me that even they aren't 100% they way they are back then. We don't understand fully how they were followed. IMO ^_^

 

[Revasser]

To add, they change with time because we change with time, nothing stays(or should stay) stale out. Humans evolve and so do the way the gods are. Really if you look at the Pagan Orthodox/recon religions it seem to me that even they aren't 100% they way they are back then. We don't understand fully how they were followed. IMO ^_^

That is definitely true. A lot of how ancient people viewed their gods and how they practiced their religion is lost to time. What we have in many cases is a relatively small number of texts, many of which are certainly corrupted versions of oral tradition written down by Christians after the fact, a few third party accounts based on observation (which should often be viewed with a critical eye) and some reasonable speculation based on archeological finds.

That being the case, it is impossible for modern people to practice exactly as ancient people did and not, to my mind, necessarily desirable. If these traditions had survived and evolved rather than being replaced with monotheism, they would undoutedly have changed greatly over time. I think it's pointless to try to perfectly reproduce the way they believed and practiced in the modern age when they wouldn't have done so themselves.

That said, I think there is a difference between thoughtful, faithful adaption and what some serious recons might call "leeching" (or more colourful names).

 

[Azakel]

hat said, I think there is a difference between thoughtful, faithful adaption and what some serious recons might call "leeching" (or more colourful names).

I know a good number of 'Recons' that if you don't follow it there way and even mention that you might be eclectic they will call 'Culture Rape' on you.

 

[Revasser]

I know a good number of 'Recons' that if you don't follow it there way and even mention that you might be eclectic they will call 'Culture Rape' on you.

I've known a few as well and to some extent I understand their point of view. For an ethnic Hellene who is making a sincere attempt to adopt/adapt the ways of their own ancestors, it must be irksome to see some, say, Irish girl claiming to worship the gods of ancient Greece while lacking more than the most cursory knowledge of the associated myths and practices. Especially if she is doing so while demonstrating no meaningful desire to really try to understand any of it in context.

Fluffbunnies DO exist and some frustration with them is justified.

On the other hand, I'm not personally of the opinion that "proper" recons should be taking it upon the themselves to be the Pagan Police, admonishing everyone that isn't "doing it right". To me, that smacks a bit too much of certain schools of certain monotheist religions that shall go unnamed.

But now I'm going off-topic in my own thread.