Neither is as silly or as arrogant as this comment.gnostic said:
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old testament was detorted
- Thread starter hanif
- Start date
gnostic
The Lost One
It does, doesn't it?jay said:
Sorry.
My point is that the Qur'an's version of the Genesis resembles the world of the Jewish folklore in the Haggada, and the dream world of the books of Enoch. The Qur'an distorted the Torah with Persian symbolism and exaggeration, which are absence in the Genesis, but that are definitely present in post-Babylon-Exile literature. It is further complicated by the jinns or djinns, spiritual beings that had existed in pre-Islamic Arabian mythology.
Exaggeration can be seen when you read about Solomon (Quran 27), not only noted for his wisdom, but his ability to control jinn and animal. He had an army of jinn at his command. It seemed that his wisdom include understanding the speeches of birds and ants.
How is this exaggeration any different from that of Jacob wrestling with God?
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
jewscout said:
From Verse 32, "Therefore the children of Israel eat not of the sinew which shrank, which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day: because he touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh in the sinew that shrank."
Who was the "he" that I bolded that touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh? wouldn't that refer back to God in verse 30?
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
jewscout said:
So it was an angel who changed Jacob's name to Israel?
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
jewscout said:
Why then in verse 30 did Jacob say , "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Jay said:
See...I have seen God face to face.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
sojourner said:MET-A-PHOR. It's called metaphor.
The Biblical writers present God as anthropomorphic, so that we can more easily understand the infinite with our finite minds. That does not mean that Torah is detorted
It is also known as a Christophany or a preincarnate appearance of Christ in the flesh.
"A Christophany also is believed to have occurred when Jacob wrestled with a man in Gen. 32. Jacob says he has "seen God face to face," but Hosea 12:4 mentions an angel. This can be reconciled, if it was the angel of the LORD, as Christ said He "and the Father are one" (John 10:30)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophany
You have no clue as to the intentions of the Biblical writers, or even who they were. The fact of the matter is that much that we find in the Torah is fully conformant with the mythology of the Levant - including the Jacob story. Learn something about these things before you presume to instruct others.sojourner said:
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
jewscout said:
"Elohiym" get translated as an angel?
jewscout
Religious Zionist
sandy whitelinger said:
it can be translated in different ways, given the circumstances.
it is often translated as judge too
In many of the passages in which Elohim occurs in the Bible it refers to non-Israelite deities, or in some instances to powerful men or judges (Exodus 21:6).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism#Elohim
given the context, Jacob wrestling w/ a man, and since Judaism does not believe that G-d would take physical form (ex. being a man) therefore the term "elohim" must mean another type of being...in this case an angel.
but, again, i'll look more deeply into it and see if other commentators and sages have other perspectives or interpretations.
jewscout
Religious Zionist
in speaking w/ my rabbi who sited Onkelos, which is one of the oldest interpretations, given the context Elohim is translated as "angel".
if you want to interpret it literally, knock your socks off, but i have a hard time believing that the all-powerful G-d couldn't get Jacob in a Figure-4 leg lock and make him tap out.
again, for Judaism, it's generally translated as Angel or Divine...not G-d.
if you want to interpret it literally, knock your socks off, but i have a hard time believing that the all-powerful G-d couldn't get Jacob in a Figure-4 leg lock and make him tap out.
again, for Judaism, it's generally translated as Angel or Divine...not G-d.
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
jewscout said:
Aren't there some Psalms that have clear examples of this? Also, some places in the OT where Elohim referes to foreign gods would be useful...
jewscout
Religious Zionist
angellous_evangellous said:
Ex. 21:6 is one example where it is sometimes translated as judges
Gen.6:2 is sometimes translated as great men
it's a matter of looking at the context in some of these cases, such as the one presented in this thread.
i'll have to look around a little to find some other examples.