old testament was detorted

[sandy whitelinger]

See Hosea 12:4

And your point is........

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And your point is........

I suspect others will figure it out ...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

it can be translated in different ways, given the circumstances.
it is often translated as judge too

In many of the passages in which Elohim occurs in the Bible it refers to non-Israelite deities, or in some instances to powerful men or judges (Exodus 21:6).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_o...Judaism#Elohim

given the context, Jacob wrestling w/ a man, and since Judaism does not believe that G-d would take physical form (ex. being a man) therefore the term "elohim" must mean another type of being...in this case an angel.

but, again, i'll look more deeply into it and see if other commentators and sages have other perspectives or interpretations.

In that passage from Genesis why would Jacob worry that he would die from seeing an angel face to face? I wasn't aware that this was possible. I though the admonition was that you couldn't look on the face of God and live.

See Hosea 12:4

Should anyone else be struggling to comprehend the possible relevancy of the last quote, note that Hosea 12:4 reads: "Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed" (KJV).

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Should anyone else be struggling to comprehend the possible relevancy of the last quote, note that Hosea 12:4 reads: "Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed" (KJV).

Now you have decided to let us know what your comment related to. Now if this angel in Hosea relates back to the "angel" in Genesis, where in Genesis did Jacob prevail over the "angel?" Also why not answer my question. Where in scripture is it stated that a man cannot see the face of an angel and live?

 

[kiwimac]

The problem here, IMO, is that of insisting that these incidents must be LITERALLY true. Why can they not, for example, be parables of humanity's relationship with God?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

The problem here, IMO, is that of insisting that these incidents must be LITERALLY true. Why can they not, for example, be parables of humanity's relationship with God?

Oh, gee, I don't know........Oh, wait, it's coming to me.......yes.......because in the Bible pararables are called.........parables.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

He tried to use Hosea 12:4, "Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed..." as a proof text that Jacob wrestled with an angel. I asked him to justify that Jacob prevailed over an angel back in Genesis 32. Perhaps he went back and read Genesis 32 he realized that Jacob had power with God and prevailed.

 

[shema]

But the koran say that torah is good....isnt that an oxymoran?

 

[CaptainXeroid]

*** MOD POST ***
​

Just thought I'd post a reminder that the Private Messaging System is useful for resolving difference off-line and the ignore feature is available for members who cannot agree to disagree.

Here is a link to the Forum Rules. As I call everyone's attention to Rule #4, I point out that several posts have been deleted from this thread. I strongly recommend that future posts on this thread remain on topic and off each other.

 

[jewscout]

In that passage from Genesis why would Jacob worry that he would die from seeing an angel face to face? I wasn't aware that this was possible. I though the admonition was that you couldn't look on the face of God and live.

1) the statement that you could not look upon the "face" of G-d does not come until much later in the Torah, so one could speculate that Jacob did not know one way or the other.

2) the statement does not say that he was worried he would die, but that he met this divine entity face to face and that he is alive; one could make the same statement about successfully wrestling with a bear. given that Jacob had previously encounted angels and G-d in the Torah, if his fear was dying upon seeing the face of either, wouldn't it have made sense to make this statement prior to this incident? One can conclude that this is the statement of a man who spent long hours of the night fighting w/ a Divine creature and ultimately prevailing over it. I think his comment of about being preserved has more to do w/ the physical fight than simply seeing the angel face to face.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

But the koran say that torah is good....isnt that an oxymoran?

It would be if they had the original which they do not. They have altered and changed it so the Torah if they claim they have it is not "it" anymore. The same for the Injeel or Gospel once people changed it it is no longer the Gospel anymore.

 

[jewscout]

It would be if they had the original which they do not. They have altered and changed it so the Torah if they claim they have it is not "it" anymore. The same for the Injeel or Gospel once people changed it it is no longer the Gospel anymore.

yet the Torah is used as prooftext of Muhammed's prophethood.

again, i buy into that proof about as much as i buy into the proof of Jesus's Messiahship and/or Divinity by using Jewish text.

it's all convenient cafeteria reading IMO

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

yet the Torah is used as prooftext of Muhammed's prophethood.

again, i buy into that proof about as much as i buy into the proof of Jesus's Messiahship and/or Divinity by using Jewish text.

it's all convenient cafeteria reading IMO

As I said before in another post we do not need it as prooftext we have Quran. And the testimony of both jews and christians in our religious writings to affirm that it ie. the prooftext was there before the alterations.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

1) the statement that you could not look upon the "face" of G-d does not come until much later in the Torah, ...

So, it wan't until later that you couldn't look on the face of God and live? Before that you could?