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Omnipotence Paradox and God's Limitations

ChristineM

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
WalterTrull said:
Aha! You think we are matter! :D
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Actually we are mass but in the physics sense matter is close enough

Matter : physical substance in general, as distinct from mind and spirit; (in physics) that which occupies space and possesses rest mass, especially as distinct from energy.

I assume you think we dont matter
 
WalterTrull

WalterTrull

Godfella
ChristineM said:
Except reality
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The mist will clear. OMG How patronizing did that sound? Ouch. That's worse than "I will pray for you." While I know what I mean, I really must find better ways to say it. I'm guessing without the biblical reference. Oh well. More to follow, hopefully.
 
T

Timothy Spurlin

Active Member
Firemorphic said:
The only thing logically incoherent is the question itself (which also assumes an omnipotent god of being in the same category as a created thing, such as a person - which categorically contradicts the subject in the first place.)
Once you work on better questions, then we can talk about what is and isn't "logically incoherent" :wink:
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Did your god create you, or was it your parents having sex?
 
T

Timothy Spurlin

Active Member
osgart said:
I wouldnt be after a God who gets walked all over, and stabbed in the back by what God creates.

I wouldnt seek a God that changes his own nature, and then starts doing evil.

No one would be free of will, if they had no choice in the matter of choosing good or evil. Evil is Not at all beneficial to life. Evil is a created will that hates doing good. I am not a robot, or automaton but am a living creature. Thus God's will is that every living creature choose good, and never evil, ever! I am not after a God that accepts murderers of innocent beings.

God not being a new creature being, always was, and always will be truly good natured and need not make any choices on the matter. Nor would God be tempted to be evil. Evil runs contrary to life and its love.

I can right imagine what a perfect and truly free God is and does, never changing.

Why would God oppose God's self and change his nature? That makes absolutely no sense!

I dont have a problem with God's nature. However i dont see any omnipotence going on. Omniscience is a tall order even for a God.

So God isnt going to do what logically doesnt serve life purposes.
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You do realize your god is a human construct?
 
ChristineM

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
WalterTrull said:
The mist will clear. OMG How patronizing did that sound? Ouch. That's worse than "I will pray for you." While I know what I mean, I really must find better ways to say it. I'm guessing without the biblical reference. Oh well. More to follow, hopefully.
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Very patronising. Sounds as though you are saying "god dun it wiv god magic so stomp foot i win.'

But but if you can come up with something that can actually account for god magic that can be objectively falsified i (and millions of others) would be all ears.

In the meantime i am quit happy behind the mist of reality
 
Jainarayan

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Hubert Farnsworth said:
The omnipotence paradox is the paradox that arises from the question (or some variation thereof) "Can an omnipotent god create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it?" No matter how the question is answered, the result is that an omnipotent being is logically incoherent and thus cannot exist.
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Hinduism has a nice neat solution to this. We are living under the delusion and illusion of māyā. Everything we see and experience physically and materially, including our images and perceptions of God and the gods, the world, the stars, the universe is illusion. The only thing that exists is Brahman, which is not physical and is beyond attributes. When we try to understand Brahman, or we think of Brahman as God we are deluded by māyā.
 
WalterTrull

WalterTrull

Godfella
Jainarayan said:
Everything we see and experience physically and materially, including our images and perceptions of God and the gods, the world, the stars, the universe is illusion.
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Well yeah, but real illusions. Illusions in the sense that we don't comprehend their structure.
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Hubert Farnsworth said:
I get a lot of different reactions from theists when I bring up the omnipotence paradox. The omnipotence paradox is the paradox that arises from the question (or some variation thereof) "Can an omnipotent god create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it?" No matter how the question is answered, the result is that an omnipotent being is logically incoherent and thus cannot exist. So, if God exists, he could not be omnipotent in the technical sense, since the concept of omnipotence produces a paradox. The next question is: What are God's limitations? C.S. Lewis and many other apologists claim that God cannot do the logically impossible. But this then means that God is subservient to the laws of logic, and thus the laws of logic are above God. Other apologists claim that logic is part of God's nature, and God cannot alter his nature. This begs another question, though. If God cannot alter his nature, then he is not in charge of or responsible for his own nature, which implies that some greater being gave him his nature. Any way you look at it, the concept of an omnipotent god is logically incoherent, and raises many problems with the concept of the god of classical theism.
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If a "God" did exist in the sense of an omnipotent being I think it would have to work in the following manner.

Question, as far as your ability to imagine whatever you imagine to exist, are you omnipotent?

I think so. Can you imagine a rock so heavy that you can't lift it? Sure. At the same time you can imagine lifting it. Sure, you have complete control over what you imagine. One can imagine multiple scenarios. Imagination doesn't require logical consistency.

I like the Hindu idea of Vishnu lying in a dream like state which sustains the reality in which we exist. Logic and reason only exist for us because Vishnu/God/Whomever sustains both. However, like any dreamer it is sustained only as long as it is willed by the "dreamer" to be sustained.

So in this case, what we experience as our reality is illusion. There actually is no rock or a god within the dream to lift it.

God just like any of us is omnipotent over what they imagine to exist. So for God to actually be omnipotent over this reality they would have to exist outside of this reality but of course could still imagine themselves to exist in it.

So if you look for "God" in this reality, our shared existence, there is none there just as you don't actually physical exist in whatever reality you create via your own imaginings.
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Jainarayan said:
Of course, I do say "ask a gunshot victim or a woman in labor if it's an illusion". :D
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I was being "eaten" by something. There was pain there was fear/horror. If asked at that moment was what I was experiencing real, of course I would have said yes, but then I woke up.
 
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