Omnipotence Paradox and God's Limitations

[Timothy Spurlin]

Take your fingers out of your ears. If you can't comprehend what is said to you, how is conversation even possible.

Believe whatever you wish.

If you don't have the objective evidence that your god is real, then just say you don't have it.
Stop projecting what you do on to me.

 

[Deeje]

I assume you did not read my post, the second law of thermodynamics did not begin to coalesce until AFTER the bb.

What does that have to do with anything? Creation proceeded exactly how it was supposed to....in the order that it needed to be done. Its a strange thing that when science discovers something it seems to want to take credit for it. Like the science of bio-mimetics......scientists uncover the clever secrets of nature and then proceed to copy the genius demonstrated in the natural world, to take credit for the copy (and often profiting financially from it) whilst pretending that it took no intelligence to invent the original.

The universe is chaotic, gravity sees to that
not organised.

I find gravity to be very useful actually. It seems to be well organized to me. After all what would the universe and life on earth be like without it? We don't need anything to anchor us on this ball spinning at about a 1,000 miles per hour...do we? The planets and their moons orbit away in a very precise manner...like it was programmed.

Where is it written in science that god did it with magic. Science is happy to say "dont know" religion isnt so invents gods to ease their lack of knowledge

Who said anything about magic? The Bible says that magic is something detestable to God. Unless an atomic explosion is also "magic" then God's power is simply that.....directed power of an incredible and immeasurable kind. Why do you have a problem with that?

Are you saying its not a bronze age book?

I am not concerned by its age but more inclined to evaluate its contents. Nothing in the Bible can be proven to be untrue. It can be disputed by anyone, but never can science prove that the Bible is false....it can prove that some interpretations of the Bible are highly questionable, but then many scientific theories are equally questionable.

It is a book written by people that had no understanding of the nature of the universe so they made up stories to ease their lack of understanding. And incidentally bestow much power on themselves.

They were still in their infancy as far as scientific knowledge was concerned. Most of science's knowledge has been attained only in the last 200 years or so. At the turn of last century they were only beginning to come to terms with the transmission of disease and washing their hands. So at the time the Bible was written, it was sufficient for their level of understanding. It still is.

Dont be silly, the bible bible can and has been pulled appary and found lacking in almost every aspect it touches on

Please share these instances where the Bible has been proven to be false.

E=MC2 proves the god of revelation 19:6 (kjv) cannot exist

Please share this too.

Yes but still made implecations that if was unmeasurable

No I didn't. I said God's power is immeasurable. I said man had invented instruments to measure the wind....but no instrument to measure God's power.

Prove this planet is unique in being the only one to support life. That is an extraordinary bold claim which requires extraordinarily evidence

Now this is classic, but indicative of science's limitations when it comes to real knowledge about the universe. They have been searching for signs of life on other planets since space exploration was first begun. To date, there has been none found. There is a lot of speculation but nothing concrete. This is what science excels at.....speculation...what 'could be' or 'might be' out there...when they don't really know what IS.

Yes a pump to circulate blood, no emotion involves . Dying of a broken heart is a figure of speech not a fact

Google it. You can die of a broken heart.

And in that history even kings kept goats

But the Kings were not the goat herders. Nor were the scribes who wrote their words. You want to imply lack of intelligence, but in science I see a great lack of intelligence in accepting things that cannot be proven....so where is the oneupmanship? You guys are "believers" in what cannot be proven, so how are you on higher ground than we are? Choose your belief system....

What? Again you must have proof of your claim that the educated jews left their belief to follow an itinerant preacher - who incidentally probably didnt exist as described in the bible

The proof is in history itself. What reason was Jesus sent to the "lost sheep" of Israel, rather than to her well educated religious leaders? That will answer your question.


Napoleon once commented...."An extraordinary power of influencing and commanding men has been given to Alexander, Charlemagne and myself. But with us the presence has been necessary. . . . Whereas Jesus Christ has influenced and commanded His subjects without His visible bodily presence for eighteen hundred years.”

He also said...“Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself founded empires, but upon what did we rest the creations of our genius? Upon force. Jesus Christ alone founded his kingdom upon love.”

Mahatma Gandhi even said to Lord Erwin, the British Viceroy....“When your country and mine shall get together on the teachings laid down by Christ in this Sermon of the Mount, we shall have solved the problems, not only of our countries but those of the whole world.”

Quite an impressive itinerant preacher IMO.

 

[MonkeyFire]

why would God willingly create a paradox?

 

[Nakosis]

So you think reality is an illusion?

I'm discussing a Hindu belief.

 

[Nakosis]

Good luck with that.

I'll assume you haven't had much experience with lucid dreams.

So your god is not real, fair enough

Hindu philosophy is pretty deep, but like most religions, their concepts of gods can vary.

 

[ChristineM]

What does that have to do with anything? Creation proceeded exactly how it was supposed to....in the order that it needed to be done. Its a strange thing that when science discovers something it seems to want to take credit for it. Like the science of bio-mimetics......scientists uncover the clever secrets of nature and then proceed to copy the genius demonstrated in the natural world, to take credit for the copy (and often profiting financially from it) whilst pretending that it took no intelligence to invent the original.

Your hatred and mockery, deliberate misunderstanding and misrepresentation of science because it actually attempts to discover the working of the natural world rather that taking the unquestioning word of bronze age authors of your faith is not my problem

I find gravity to be very useful actually. It seems to be well organized to me. After all what would the universe and life on earth be like without it? We don't need anything to anchor us on this ball spinning at about a 1,000 miles per hour...do we? The planets and their moons orbit away in a very precise manner...like it was programmed.

You ate thinking on much to small a scale,. I cannot educate you on that if you refuse to be educated. Needless to say you should study the orbits of spacial bodies to see how disorganised they are

Precise?

Who said anything about magic? The Bible says that magic is something detestable to God. Unless an atomic explosion is also "magic" then God's power is simply that.....directed power of an incredible and immeasurable kind. Why do you have a problem with that?

Yet the only way for god to have done it is with magic so hypocrisy is a rule of god?

I am not concerned by its age but more inclined to evaluate its contents. Nothing in the Bible can be proven to be untrue. It can be disputed by anyone, but never can science prove that the Bible is false....it can prove that some interpretations of the Bible are highly questionable, but then many scientific theories are equally questionable.

And there lies the problem. Do you use an abacus or a computer to post on RF?

Creation of man and woman??? Impossible and contradictory
Talking snakes and donkeys??? Impossible
Samsons magic hair??? Impossible
Pillar of salt??? Impossible
Noahs ark??? Impossible and proven not to have occured
Virgin birth??? Impossible and contradictory.

They were still in their infancy as far as scientific knowledge was concerned. Most of science's knowledge has been attained only in the last 200 years or so. At the turn of last century they were only beginning to come to terms with the transmission of disease and washing their hands. So at the time the Bible was written, it was sufficient for their level of understanding. It still is.

It was all they knew at the time, knowledge has increased in so many ways, the bible has not changed.

Please share these instances where the Bible has been proven to be false.[/QUOTE

See above
Of the 450 or so english language versions of the bible, consensus is rare

Please share this too.

Omnipotence is infinite power, power is work done over time which requires energy. To have infinite power requires infinite energy. Energy is not infinite.

No I didn't. I said God's power is immeasurable. I said man had invented instruments to measure the wind....but no instrument to measure God's power.

So in fact you dropped in a straw man with your wind analogy?

Once again, power (and energy can be measured)

Now this is classic, but indicative of science's limitations when it comes to real knowledge about the universe. They have been searching for signs of life on other planets since space exploration was first begun. To date, there has been none found. There is a lot of speculation but nothing concrete. This is what science excels at.....speculation...what 'could be' or 'might be' out there...when they don't really know what IS.

Actually its your error that is classic. Astronomy is finding new planets every day, (approximately 4000 to date) about 10% of those found appear to be able to sustain life as we understand it. Life as we dont understand it is obviously an unknown. So far only a tiny, local volume of our own galaxy has been searched.

Now science is working on ways to analyse the atmosphere of distant (but local in galactic terms) for unmistakable signs of life.

Now consider how easy it appears to be for life to form given the correct conditions. So far at least 3 experiments (using different approaches) have succeeded in creating the building blocks of life. One actually has created life that is now evolving naturally.

To say there is no other life in our galaxy, yet alone the universe is arrogant in the extreme.

Google it. You can die of a broken heart.

And if you actually read the contents of just one of those search results rather than picking a title and running with it you would see...Death from a "broken" heart is a medical condition brought on by ill health (heart attack etc) brought on by a surge of hormones created by the brain. The heart is a muscle that, like all muscles reacts to nerve and hormonal signals from the brain.

But the Kings were not the goat herders. Nor were the scribes who wrote their words. You want to imply lack of intelligence, but in science I see a great lack of intelligence in accepting things that cannot be proven....so where is the oneupmanship? You guys are "believers" in what cannot be proven, so how are you on higher ground than we are? Choose your belief system....

You have a very rose tinted glasses view of the period. Kings (in the area) were nothing more than tribal leaders, some of whom had scribes (either employed or captive slaves) because they were for the most part uneducated.

Where does science accept the unproven? Examples please.

The proof is in history itself. What reason was Jesus sent to the "lost sheep" of Israel, rather than to her well educated religious leaders? That will answer your question.

You dont actually have any proof that jesus existed as described in the bible. What you have is faith.

Napoleon once commented...."An extraordinary power of influencing and commanding men has been given to Alexander, Charlemagne and myself. But with us the presence has been necessary. . . . Whereas Jesus Christ has influenced and commanded His subjects without His visible bodily presence for eighteen hundred years.”

He also said...“Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself founded empires, but upon what did we rest the creations of our genius? Upon force. Jesus Christ alone founded his kingdom upon love.”

Mahatma Gandhi even said to Lord Erwin, the British Viceroy....“When your country and mine shall get together on the teachings laid down by Christ in this Sermon of the Mount, we shall have solved the problems, not only of our countries but those of the whole world.”

Quite an impressive itinerant preacher IMO.

Irrelevant straw men and see above for the question of proof

 

[ChristineM]

I'll assume you haven't had much experience with lucid dreams.



Hindu philosophy is pretty deep, but like most religions, their concepts of gods can vary.

Yes i have, i am however able to determine the difference between reality and a bunch of neurones firing.

I am sure, it is also faith.

 

[Timothy Spurlin]

I'm discussing a Hindu belief.

That didn't answer my question.

 

[Timothy Spurlin]

What does that have to do with anything? Creation proceeded exactly how it was supposed to....in the order that it needed to be done. Its a strange thing that when science discovers something it seems to want to take credit for it. Like the science of bio-mimetics......scientists uncover the clever secrets of nature and then proceed to copy the genius demonstrated in the natural world, to take credit for the copy (and often profiting financially from it) whilst pretending that it took no intelligence to invent the original.



I find gravity to be very useful actually. It seems to be well organized to me. After all what would the universe and life on earth be like without it? We don't need anything to anchor us on this ball spinning at about a 1,000 miles per hour...do we? The planets and their moons orbit away in a very precise manner...like it was programmed.



Who said anything about magic? The Bible says that magic is something detestable to God. Unless an atomic explosion is also "magic" then God's power is simply that.....directed power of an incredible and immeasurable kind. Why do you have a problem with that?



I am not concerned by its age but more inclined to evaluate its contents. Nothing in the Bible can be proven to be untrue. It can be disputed by anyone, but never can science prove that the Bible is false....it can prove that some interpretations of the Bible are highly questionable, but then many scientific theories are equally questionable.



They were still in their infancy as far as scientific knowledge was concerned. Most of science's knowledge has been attained only in the last 200 years or so. At the turn of last century they were only beginning to come to terms with the transmission of disease and washing their hands. So at the time the Bible was written, it was sufficient for their level of understanding. It still is.



Please share these instances where the Bible has been proven to be false.



Please share this too.



No I didn't. I said God's power is immeasurable. I said man had invented instruments to measure the wind....but no instrument to measure God's power.



Now this is classic, but indicative of science's limitations when it comes to real knowledge about the universe. They have been searching for signs of life on other planets since space exploration was first begun. To date, there has been none found. There is a lot of speculation but nothing concrete. This is what science excels at.....speculation...what 'could be' or 'might be' out there...when they don't really know what IS.



Google it. You can die of a broken heart.



But the Kings were not the goat herders. Nor were the scribes who wrote their words. You want to imply lack of intelligence, but in science I see a great lack of intelligence in accepting things that cannot be proven....so where is the oneupmanship? You guys are "believers" in what cannot be proven, so how are you on higher ground than we are? Choose your belief system....



The proof is in history itself. What reason was Jesus sent to the "lost sheep" of Israel, rather than to her well educated religious leaders? That will answer your question.


Napoleon once commented...."An extraordinary power of influencing and commanding men has been given to Alexander, Charlemagne and myself. But with us the presence has been necessary. . . . Whereas Jesus Christ has influenced and commanded His subjects without His visible bodily presence for eighteen hundred years.”

He also said...“Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself founded empires, but upon what did we rest the creations of our genius? Upon force. Jesus Christ alone founded his kingdom upon love.”

Mahatma Gandhi even said to Lord Erwin, the British Viceroy....“When your country and mine shall get together on the teachings laid down by Christ in this Sermon of the Mount, we shall have solved the problems, not only of our countries but those of the whole world.”

Quite an impressive itinerant preacher IMO.

First you have to prove there is a god that created anything.
How do you know that things are as they should be?

 

[Willamena]

I get a lot of different reactions from theists when I bring up the omnipotence paradox. The omnipotence paradox is the paradox that arises from the question (or some variation thereof) "Can an omnipotent god create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it?" No matter how the question is answered, the result is that an omnipotent being is logically incoherent and thus cannot exist. So, if God exists, he could not be omnipotent in the technical sense, since the concept of omnipotence produces a paradox. The next question is: What are God's limitations? C.S. Lewis and many other apologists claim that God cannot do the logically impossible. But this then means that God is subservient to the laws of logic, and thus the laws of logic are above God. Other apologists claim that logic is part of God's nature, and God cannot alter his nature. This begs another question, though. If God cannot alter his nature, then he is not in charge of or responsible for his own nature, which implies that some greater being gave him his nature. Any way you look at it, the concept of an omnipotent god is logically incoherent, and raises many problems with the concept of the god of classical theism.

Omnipotence doesn't refer to human capabilities like strength, but to more cosmic ones. The omni-god is the image of an all-pervading god, present in every atom, knowledgeable and capable from that perspective. It is very much an ancient pantheistic image.

 

[Nakosis]

Yes i have, i am however able to determine the difference between reality and a bunch of neurones firing.

I am sure, it is also faith.

Neurons firing is reality. That's how nerves communicate.

 

[Nakosis]

That didn't answer my question.

Ok, so?

 

[ChristineM]

Neurons firing is reality. That's how nerves communicate.

Still dreaming

 

[Nakosis]

Still dreaming

I think you got it.

 

[ChristineM]

I think you got it.

Yup i got dreaming is not reality, dreaming does not pay the rent

 

[Nakosis]

Yup i got dreaming is not reality, dreaming does not pay the rent

Not really the point. Try this, next time you are dreaming, within the dream try to prove it's only a dream.

 

[ChristineM]

Not really the point. Try this, next time you are dreaming, within the dream try to prove it's only a dream.

Try this, next time you are dreaming put $10000 in your bank, see if its there when you wake up

 

[Nakosis]

Try this, next time you are dreaming put $10000 in your bank, see if its there when you wake up

Waking up is cheating.
Obviously folks realize they were dreaming after they wake. There's nothing special about that. You don't even have to put money in the bank. You just wake up and realize you've been dreaming. No real need to prove the obvious.

The proof has to happen before you wake up.

 

[ChristineM]

Waking up is cheating.
Obviously folks realize they were dreaming after they wake. There's nothing special about that. You don't even have to put money in the bank. You just wake up and realize you've been dreaming. No real need to prove the obvious.

The proof has to happen before you wake up.

The money never went in the bank even during the dream. Case closed

 

[Nakosis]

The money never went in the bank even during the dream. Case closed

Ok, you've proven something no one was asking to be proved. Congratulations.
Let me know if you ever want to prove something that's actually difficult.