Omnipresent?

[blü 2]

That would be a misunderstanding of the trinity or maybe just a misrepresentation that makes it sound like unitarianism.

The Trinity doctrine wasn't devised till the 4th century. Nothing plainer than that the authors of the NT and the people in the gospels, Jesus included, had never heard of such a thing.

For example, each of the five versions of Jesus in the NT (those of Paul and of the four gospel authors) expressly denies that's he's God, and none of them ever claims to be God. If you want me to quote the denials, just ask. They mean that at the least, if Jesus was in fact God then his earthly ministry was based on a Big Lie, an ongoing deceit. And who were the four gospel versions of Jesus talking to when they prayed? Why would God have to ask God whether he had to go ahead and be crucified or not? Why would the Jesuses of Mark and Matthew say on the cross, "Why have I forsaken me?"

As well, the Trinity Doctrine is not only incoherent but declared by the churches to be so. (They prefer the expression "a mystery in the strict sense" but the meaning is the same.)

 

[Brian2]

The Trinity doctrine wasn't devised till the 4th century. Nothing plainer than that the authors of the NT and the people in the gospels, Jesus included, had never heard of such a thing.

For example, each of the five versions of Jesus in the NT (those of Paul and of the four gospel authors) expressly denies that's he's God, and none of them ever claims to be God. If you want me to quote the denials, just ask. They mean that at the least, if Jesus was in fact God then his earthly ministry was based on a Big Lie, an ongoing deceit. And who were the four gospel versions of Jesus talking to when they prayed? Why would God have to ask God whether he had to go ahead and be crucified or not? Why would the Jesuses of Mark and Matthew say on the cross, "Why have I forsaken me?"

As well, the Trinity Doctrine is not only incoherent but declared by the churches to be so. (They prefer the expression "a mystery in the strict sense" but the meaning is the same.)

I was just pointing out that to say that a Trinitarian Jesus would mean that Jesus was talking to Himself on the cross is a misrepresentation of what the Trinity is. In fact it is more like the unitarian Jesus.
If you want to quote anything then try quoting the places where the New Testament shows either explicitly or implicitly that Jesus is God. Can you do that?

 

[blü 2]

I was just pointing out that to say that a Trinitarian Jesus would mean that Jesus was talking to Himself on the cross is a misrepresentation of what the Trinity is.

Under the Trinity doctrine, Jesus is 100% of God (just as the Father is 100% of God and the Ghost is 100% of God) and the incoherence arises because the Father is not Jesus or the Ghost and Jesus is not the Ghost (ie if they were three gods, they wouldn't have an incoherence problem). Therefore according to the doctrine when Jesus prays to God, he prays to himself.

If you want to quote anything then try quoting the places where the New Testament shows either explicitly or implicitly that Jesus is God. Can you do that?

No. As I said, all five versions of Jesus in the NT explicitly deny they're God and never claim to be God. (John 8:58, often so mentioned, isn't a claim to be God, but follows from John's Jesus being gnostic-flavored, like Paul's but unlike the synoptics. As such John's and Paul's Jesuses pre-existed with God in heaven and in the role of the demiurge created the material universe, thus 'were' before Abraham was. But no doubt you know that,)

 

[Brian2]

Under the Trinity doctrine, Jesus is 100% of God (just as the Father is 100% of God and the Ghost is 100% of God) and the incoherence arises because the Father is not Jesus or the Ghost and Jesus is not the Ghost (ie if they were three gods, they wouldn't have an incoherence problem). Therefore according to the doctrine when Jesus prays to God, he prays to himself.

That could be the problem. Jesus is not 100% of God and neither is the Holy Spirit or the Father.

No. As I said, all five versions of Jesus in the NT explicitly deny they're God and never claim to be God. (John 8:58, often so mentioned, isn't a claim to be God, but follows from John's Jesus being gnostic-flavored, like Paul's but unlike the synoptics. As such John's and Paul's Jesuses pre-existed with God in heaven and in the role of the demiurge created the material universe, thus 'were' before Abraham was. But no doubt you know that,)

Where does Jesus deny being God?
Why would you believe that if you don't believe other things in the New Testament?
But I guess you do not believe it, you just mention it.
I wouldn't call Jesus a demiurge since they are subordinate gods and in the Bible there is only one true God.
The pre-existing Jesus never came into existence and made all things that have been made. (John 1:3) He is exactly like the invisible God and is in the invisible God and one with Him.
He is the Son of His Father and shares the same God natural and the same glory. (Heb 1:1-4)
But that all works out to one God with 3 persons instead of 3 Gods or 1 God and 2 demigods or however else you want to put it, which no doubt has been tried in the past.

 

[blü 2]

That could be the problem. Jesus is not 100% of God and neither is the Holy Spirit or the Father.

Well, the Trinity doctrine says they are.

How do you say it works, exactly?

Is God a partnership, or association, with three members each with one vote?

Is the Father ⅓ of God and Jesus ⅓ of God and the Ghost ⅓ of God? So that when they're apart there's no God?

Or is the Father 97% of God and Jesus 2% and the Ghost 1%?

Or are there three independent persons each a god?

Which of those is correct, in your view?

Where does Jesus deny being God?

Here's a few examples, from all five principal authors and some scraps too:

Paul
1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Philippians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;” ... 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;


Matthew 20:23 “to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”


Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”


John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me”

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 10:29 “My Father [...] is greater than all”.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

John 14:28 [...] I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”


1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

1 John 4:12 No man has ever seen God [...]​

Why would you believe that if you don't believe other things in the New Testament?
But I guess you do not believe it, you just mention it.

The question we're discussing is, what does the NT say about Jesus being God? And the answer, as I said, is, nothing ─ all five major versions of Jesus deny they're God (as you can see above) and none ever says, "I am God". Instead all four gospel Jesuses expressly pray to God, and Mark's and Matthew's ask why God has forsaken them.

in the Bible there is only one true God.

And that's the absolutely unTrinitarian God of the Jews.

The pre-existing Jesus never came into existence and made all things that have been made. (John 1:3).

Paul says Jesus pre-existed in heaven with God and made the material universe (as you can see in 1 Corinthians 8:6 above). The author of John says Jesus pre-existed in heaven and made the material universe. Those are ideas from gnosticism, and they have no parallel in the synoptics, where Mark's Jesus only becomes the son of God by adoption, and the Jesuses of Matthew and Luke become the son of God when Mary is impregnated by God.

Please note that my interest in what the NT says has the same basis as my interest in what other ancient texts say. If the NT said Jesus was God, I'd say, yes, it says Jesus is God. Instead they make it clear that Jesus isn't God. He has to wait another 300 years till the Trinity doctrine is invented.

 

[Brian2]

Well, the Trinity doctrine says they are.

The trinity doctrine says they are all 100% God, it does not say that each of them is 100% of God.

Here's a few examples, from all five principal authors and some scraps too:

Paul
1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Philippians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;” ... 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;


Matthew 20:23 “to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”


Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”


John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me”

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 10:29 “My Father [...] is greater than all”.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

John 14:28 [...] I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”


1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

1 John 4:12 No man has ever seen God [...]​

None of those say that Jesus is not God. The closest imo is John 17:3 and 1Cor 8:6 but these can be explained also.
​

The question we're discussing is, what does the NT say about Jesus being God? And the answer, as I said, is, nothing ─ all five major versions of Jesus deny they're God (as you can see above) and none ever says, "I am God". Instead all four gospel Jesuses expressly pray to God, and Mark's and Matthew's ask why God has forsaken them.
And that's the absolutely unTrinitarian God of the Jews.
Paul says Jesus pre-existed in heaven with God and made the material universe (as you can see in 1 Corinthians 8:6 above). The author of John says Jesus pre-existed in heaven and made the material universe. Those are ideas from gnosticism, and they have no parallel in the synoptics, where Mark's Jesus only becomes the son of God by adoption, and the Jesuses of Matthew and Luke become the son of God when Mary is impregnated by God.

Please note that my interest in what the NT says has the same basis as my interest in what other ancient texts say. If the NT said Jesus was God, I'd say, yes, it says Jesus is God. Instead they make it clear that Jesus isn't God. He has to wait another 300 years till the Trinity doctrine is invented.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
Why do you imply that since the deity of Jesus is not so explicit in the synoptic Gospels that they did not believe it?

 

[ppp]

The trinity doctrine says they are all 100% God, it does not say that each of them is 100% of God.

Interesting. What sect of Christianity has that in their doctrine? All of the trinitarian sects that I am familiar with say that God is three persons, but that God is not divided into three parts. Parts. That all three persons are each 100% God. But are each all of the being of God.

When you say that each of them is 100% God, but not 100% of God, you're sliding into the province of divine aspects. Which is a pagan heresy. At least as far as most trinitarian theologies see it.

 

[Brian2]

Interesting. What sect of Christianity has that in their doctrine? All of the trinitarian sects that I am familiar with say that God is three persons, but that God is not divided into three parts. Parts. That all three persons are each 100% God. But are each all of the being of God.

When you say that each of them is 100% God, but not 100% of God, you're sliding into the province of divine aspects. Which is a pagan heresy. At least as far as most trinitarian theologies see it.

I said that to argue against what blu 2 was saying when he said that each is 100% of God and so when Jesus prayed to God He was speaking to Himself. That is unitarianism.
But my understanding is that since the Father and Holy Spirit are in the Son, when I look at the Son I am looking at someone in whom dwells the fullness of deity. (Col 2:9) And so with each of them.
But of course if I could see the Holy Spirit or the Father I still would not be looking at all of God because God is everywhere.

 

[ppp]

I said that to argue against what blu 2 was saying when he said that each is 100% of God and so when Jesus prayed to God He was speaking to Himself. That is unitarianism.

Unitarian Christians do not believe that Jesus is a deity or the worldly incarnation of God. They believe he is a saviour, but that he was human.

But my understanding is that since the Father and Holy Spirit are in the Son, when I look at the Son I am looking at someone in whom dwells the fullness of deity. (Col 2:9) And so with each of them.
But of course if I could see the Holy Spirit or the Father I still would not be looking at all of God because God is everywhere.

That was not exactly how I was taught growing up Baptist, but I won't fuss about a doctrine that doesn't seem to be coherent to me at its base.

 

[Brian2]

Unitarian Christians do not believe that Jesus is a deity or the worldly incarnation of God. They believe he is a saviour, but that he was human.

There you go, you learn something every day. I thought Unitarianism is the modern equivalent of Modalism, which is what I meant.

That was not exactly how I was taught growing up Baptist, but I won't fuss about a doctrine that doesn't seem to be coherent to me at its base.

That is how I understand it even if I may disagree with what theologians might say in a strict way. Personally even thought the truth of the Trinity is important I do not think that many people, including trinitarians understand it exactly the same way and I doubt that God is particularly worried by that.

 

[ppp]

There you go, you learn something every day. I thought Unitarianism is the modern equivalent of Modalism, which is what I meant.



That is how I understand it even if I may disagree with what theologians might say in a strict way. Personally even thought the truth of the Trinity is important I do not think that many people, including trinitarians understand it exactly the same way and I doubt that God is particularly worried by that.

Heh. I knew the concept behind modalism, but didn't know the word.

 

[Brian2]

Heh. I knew the concept behind modalism, but didn't know the word.

See we learn something every day hopefully. I think another name for it is Sabellianism and Monarchianism. They are probably forms of Modalism.
Sometimes I wonder how pedantic God is about some of this stuff, but of course we can't have Jesus speaking to Himself when He is praying.

 

[ppp]

Monarchianism

O.M.F.G.

So, I learned two things today. I owe you a cookie. A really big cookie.

Several years ago, I heard the last ten minutes of a lecture on Christian beliefs that totally confused me. I thought the speaker was saying "Manichaeism". But now I realize that he was saying "monarchianism". A word that I had never heard before.

It makes the point he was making make a whole lot more sense!
Thank you.

 

[blü 2]

The trinity doctrine says they are all 100% God, it does not say that each of them is 100% of God.

Yes it does ─ that's the incoherent part I mentioned.

But you didn't explain your version to me ─ are they a partnership ruled by majority? Each one-third of God? Each some other fraction of God?

Are they three gods? ─ the situation which would remove the incoherence, but which the doctrine specifically denies?

None of those say that Jesus is not God. The closest imo is John 17:3 and 1Cor 8:6 but these can be explained also.

Why should they be 'explained' just to fit your preconceptions? They speak plainly for themselves.

Are you unaware that as a matter of historical fact the Trinity doctrine doesn't exist before the 4th century?

And where are all the unambiguous statements, "I, Jesus, am God"?

To contradict, of course, all those bible passages that expressly deny that he's God?

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ.​

Jesus, in other words, is not God.

Philippians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

Jesus, in other words, is not God.

Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;”​

That is, "our God" the God of the Jews that Jesus worships.

Matthew 20:23 “to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”​

Jesus, in other words, does not have the power of God, on earth or in heaven.

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”​

The same point clearly made again.

Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”​

Jesus, in other words, is not God.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God​

So the people looking at Jesus are NOT looking at God. The same point is made in 1 John 4:12.

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”​

Jesus, in other words, does not possess the powers of God.

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority​

Same point clearly made again, further underlined in John 6:38 and John 8:42 and John 10:29 and John 14.10.

John 14:1 ye believe in God, believe also in me​

That is, Jesus is not God.

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”​

What could more plainly distinguish Jesus from God than that?

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​

The monogod of the Jews, the God Jesus worships, an entity entirely distinct from Jesus.

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,​

NOT the God Jesus Christ.


And of course if Jesus, after all those denials, was in fact God, then his entire ministry was one long deceit, the living of a lie.

 

[idea]

I think the trinity concept allows the OT God to become much more palatable. God seems more present if you weave the atonement in - present through suffering. All-present almost starts sounding like eastern beliefs, with everything being part of God, God in everything and in everyone.

 

[Brian2]

O.M.F.G.

So, I learned two things today. I owe you a cookie. A really big cookie.

Several years ago, I heard the last ten minutes of a lecture on Christian beliefs that totally confused me. I thought the speaker was saying "Manichaeism". But now I realize that he was saying "monarchianism". A word that I had never heard before.

It makes the point he was making make a whole lot more sense!
Thank you.

Manichaeism is a type of Gnosticism. So many names, so many heresies. It's like the number of denominations of Christianity.
Life is a lot easier with the internet, but probably our memory capacity has dropped.

 

[ppp]

Manichaeism

Ya. Manichaeism I knew about. Which is why I was so confused. LOL The lecture was back around 2000. Before I walked around with the internet near my crotch.

 

[Brian2]

Yes it does ─ that's the incoherent part I mentioned.

But you didn't explain your version to me ─ are they a partnership ruled by majority? Each one-third of God? Each some other fraction of God?

Are they three gods? ─ the situation which would remove the incoherence, but which the doctrine specifically denies?

The idea is to have a doctrine that fits all of what the NT and OT says about God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
There needs to be just one God.
Deut 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
The Trinity does fit this passage since the word used for "one" there can be and is a word that is used for a complex/composite one.
1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ.
My view is that the Father is God and in the Father is the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Father is the source of the Son and the Holy Spirit and do is called the only true God.
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct but not separate as in the Son is the Father and HS and in the HS is the Father and Son.
In that respect I guess each one might be able to be called 100% of God, but each distinct person can speak to the others without it being said that they are speaking to themselves.
Since God's Spirit comes from God and the Son is the Son of His Father, the Spirit and Son submit to the will of the Father.
They have the same nature and so their wills are in harmony. It is just that Jesus has also a human nature and so at times His human nature conflicted with God's will, but that did not stop Him from doing the will of His Father.

Why should they be 'explained' just to fit your preconceptions? They speak plainly for themselves.

It's not my preconceptions that are being fitted it is what other plain verses say that are being fitted. (I gave one such verse--John 1:18) The verses you present do not say that Jesus is not God, that is just read into them.

Are you unaware that as a matter of historical fact the Trinity doctrine doesn't exist before the 4th century?

Are you unaware that the Apostolic Fathers called Jesus their God and the incorporation of the Holy Spirit into the 3 can be certainly seen in the New Testament. That the Holy Spirit is alive and has the attributes of a person can also be seen in the OT and NT.
Most things are usually about Jesus and His deity so I am not up on when the Holy Spirit was first worshipped as God. But in the Bible the HS is not a creation of God but is a living person who is sent from God and teaches and grieves and speaks to us etc and is spoken of as God
eg Acts 5:3Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and withhold some of the proceeds from the land? 4 Did it not belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How could you conceive such a deed in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God!”
Certainly the Holy Spirit given to a believer is seen as a distinct person but also the one in whom is the Father and Son who also through the HS live in a believer.(See John 14:15-23)
In the 4th century even though worship of the 3 in one God had been going on for a long time, the deity of Jesus was attacked in Arianism and the Church was forced to make an official declaration of doctrine because people do misinterpret some passages in the Bible about the matter. This soon saw the official extend to the Holy Spirit as well.

And where are all the unambiguous statements, "I, Jesus, am God"?

To contradict, of course, all those bible passages that expressly deny that he's God?

No passages say "Jesus is not God" even though there are passages which call Jesus God.
John 1:18, John 20:28, Titus 2:12It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. 14He gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.…
etc. etc
There of course are other passages which tell us that Jesus is YHWH by applying to Jesus, OT passages about YHWH.
eg 1Peter 2:8 from Isa 8:14, Heb 1:10 from Psalm 102:25 etc etc

...........to continue
​

 

[Brian2]

To contradict, of course, all those bible passages that expressly deny that he's God?

The do not say plainly that Jesus is not God, that is read into them. But I showed places where Jesus is called God in the previous post.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ.

Jesus, in other words, is not God.

This was explained in the previous post. To add to that I will say if Jesus is not God in this passage then the Father is not the Lord. But the OT does call YHWH the Lord.
In this respect, to call someone the only Lord is to call them God.

Philippians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus, in other words, is not God.

Phil 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

So Jesus is given the name above all names (YHWH) so that at the mention of His name everyone worships and confesses that He is Lord and that confession, that seeing Jesus as the Son, and YHWH and Lord (God) and exactly like the Father, glorifies the God the Father.

Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;”

That is, "our God" the God of the Jews that Jesus worships.

Deut 6:4 explained in previous post.

Matthew 20:23 “to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Jesus, in other words, does not have the power of God, on earth or in heaven.

Jesus said that He has been given all power in heaven and on earth (Matt 28:18-19) and He did not take it but waited to be given it as a good Son would, even though all things that the Father has belong to the Son (John 16:15)
But even though He has all authority in heaven and earth He still submits to His Father.

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

The same point clearly made again.

As a man on earth Jesus had not been told that.

Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

Jesus, in other words, is not God.

No, Jesus in fact IS good and so He is God.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God

So the people looking at Jesus are NOT looking at God. The same point is made in 1 John 4:12.

There are many places in the OT where people did see God (eg Ex 24:9) and imo whom they saw was the pre human Jesus.
Language in the NT can be confusing when Jesus and the Father are God along with the HS and God did not want to confuse people by just straight out calling each God at every opportunity. So God in the NT is usually (not always) referring to the Father and Lord in the NT refers to Jesus and the HS is identified as God but that does not cause confusion.
Of course in John 1:18 it goes on to call Jesus God.

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

Jesus, in other words, does not possess the powers of God.

As I said, Jesus has all power and authority and John 5:19 goes on to tell us that the Father shows Jesus all that He does and that the Son does those things. But of course the passage is one of relationship and shows the Father/Son relationship that exists there and the submission of the Son to His Father.

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority

Same point clearly made again, further underlined in John 6:38 and John 8:42 and John 10:29 and John 14.10.

Here Jesus not only says He will come to judge everyone (something that YHWH is said to do in the OT) but that He is not going to judge just as a man judging other men, but is going to judge according to the will of God.
John 6:38, 8:42--Jesus did not just turn up as many in those days did, as someone who came in their own authority and taught what their minds had told them, Jesus came from God and to do God's will. It's a statement on the authority Jesus had as a man,,,,,,,,,,,,,He had the authority of God.
John 10:29 My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”…
The "one" used in verse 30 is neuter and so means "one thing". But even though Jesus could say that, He could also say that the Father is greater than I. Jesus was a man, sent as the humble servant of God and so of course the Father was greater than He was,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but not "better" because the Son has the same nature that His Father has.
John 14:9 Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works. 11Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me—or at least believe on account of the works themselves.…
This speaks again to the authority Jesus had as a man. But also that He is in the Father and the Father in Him and the closeness that the Father and Son share and that the Father and Son are exactly alike. The Son is exactly like God His Father and nobody is that except God.

John 14:1 ye believe in God, believe also in me

That is, Jesus is not God.

That is, the Father and Son are distinct. It must be remembered that Jesus is not speaking to people who know He is God and is pointing to belief in God as similar to belief in Himself, as He was about to go away (be crucified etc)

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

What could more plainly distinguish Jesus from God than that?

Distinguishing the Son from the Father is a good thing. Seeing the oneness of the Father and Son (John 10:30) is also good and seeing that the Son is exactly like His Father is good.

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

The monogod of the Jews, the God Jesus worships, an entity entirely distinct from Jesus.

Not a monogod but a complex/compound one God.
The Son was sent by the Father to become a man and as a man Jesus has His Father as His God and the Father became the God of Jesus when Jesus became a man (see Psalm 22:10)
It is just like the pre human Jesus was not a servant of God but took the form/nature of a servant when He became a man. (see Phil 2:7)

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

NOT the God Jesus Christ.

By becoming a man and bringing the New Covenant the Son could be the mediator of that covenant and could be the perfect mediator, being both divine and human. But even as the man mediator now, in Him dwell the fullness of deity bodily (Col 2:9)

And of course if Jesus, after all those denials, was in fact God, then his entire ministry was one long deceit, the living of a lie.

What you call denials is just things being read into the passages. If after the plain passages that call Jesus God, Jesus is not God, then the Bible is a big lie.

 

[Brian2]

Ya. Manichaeism I knew about. Which is why I was so confused. LOL The lecture was back around 2000. Before I walked around with the internet near my crotch.

Careful it might make you sterile.