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Omniscience + Creator = No Free Will

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themadhair

Well-Known Member
If god existed and were an omniscient creator then I contend we have no free will. God would know the future course of any creation by its omniscience. Thus, in the act of creation god determined the future course of that creation. Because god created, and knew the future course of that creation from ‘before’ (doesn’t make much sense but you get the idea) it created, we cannot have free will.

Discuss.
 
CarlinKnew

CarlinKnew

Well-Known Member
themadhair said:
If god existed and were an omniscient creator then I contend we have no free will. God would know the future course of any creation by its omniscience. Thus, in the act of creation god determined the future course of that creation. Because god created, and knew the future course of that creation from ‘before’ (doesn’t make much sense but you get the idea) it created, we cannot have free will.

Discuss.
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If the course of all future events is knowable, it must be predetermined.

Do we have free will? Of course, we have no choice in the matter ;)
 
T

themadhair

Well-Known Member
Willamena said:
Please define the terms for use in this discussion.
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Free will – where choices made by beings are solely determined by the beings themselves. This may include the analysis of external information in making choices, but htta choice is still determined by the being itself.

Omniscience – having absolute knowledge.

Creator – the creator of the universe as we know it.
 
JMorris

JMorris

Democratic Socialist
CarlinKnew said:
If the course of all future events is knowable, it must be predetermined.

Do we have free will? Of course, we have no choice in the matter ;)
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once again CarlinKnew, you have beaten me to it. funny how simple things are when you dont include god/magic, ehh?
 
G

gzusfrk

Christian
themadhair said:
If god existed and were an omniscient creator then I contend we have no free will. God would know the future course of any creation by its omniscience. Thus, in the act of creation god determined the future course of that creation. Because god created, and knew the future course of that creation from ‘before’ (doesn’t make much sense but you get the idea) it created, we cannot have free will.

Discuss.
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what if I got in a time machine went to tommorow saw everything you did,came back to today,I would know everything, but you would still do what you do.
 
T

themadhair

Well-Known Member
gzusfrk said:
what if I got in a time machine went to tommorow saw everything you did,came back to today,I would know everything, but you would still do what you do.
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Possibly. In this case I am interested in exploring the creator aspect too.

Willamena said:
Then how do we determine if the universe as we don't know it is determined?
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If an omniscient creator created it I’d argue it is determined. This is the basis from which I’m proposing that free will isn’t compatible with an omniscient creator.
 
MoonWater

MoonWater

Warrior Bard
Premium Member
gzusfrk said:
what if I got in a time machine went to tommorow saw everything you did,came back to today,I would know everything, but you would still do what you do.
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Except you didn't create him. And that's the point he's making. That if god knows everything then he would know exactly what we would do upon creating us. Thus he would be, wittingly or unwittingly, creating us to do exactly what we set out to do.

The thing is this argument only stands if you define omniscience as knowing everything past, present, and future. If however one defines omniscience as knowing everything that is currently knowable then god could be omniscient without knowing what would happen in the future. He could make educated guesses that would likely be right most of the time, but he wouldn't know for certain. Personally I find this to be a more accurate definition of omniscience. Future events haven't yet happened, as such how can future events be "knowledge" in one's mind? They can be predictions and hypotheses but how can they be knowledge?

edit: or perhaps a better way of putting it; is "knowing" the future a necessary trait of omniscience? And if so why?
 
T

themadhair

Well-Known Member
MoonWater said:
edit: or perhaps a better way of putting it; is "knowing" the future a necessary trait of omniscience? And if so why?
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This is a fair point. If your definition of omniscience were the case then there need not be a contradiction with free will.

Question is – would any theists accept such a reduced omniscience for their god?
 
Dunemeister

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
themadhair said:
If god existed and were an omniscient creator then I contend we have no free will. God would know the future course of any creation by its omniscience. Thus, in the act of creation god determined the future course of that creation. Because god created, and knew the future course of that creation from ‘before’ (doesn’t make much sense but you get the idea) it created, we cannot have free will.

Discuss.
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This is tantamount to saying that if there is a truth of the matter about the future, we have no free will, which is demonstrably false. Take this sentence:

D: Dunemeister will eat granola and yoghurt tomorrow morning at 8 A.M.

On what conditions could D be true? Well, it's true if I eat the specified food at the specified time. What would MAKE D true? Well, my decision at 8 A.M. tomorrow would. Will I do so or not? Right now, I don't know. But on the morrow I will find out.

So what if it's true? That is, what if it's true that at 8 A.M., I will eat granola and yoghurt tomorrow at 8? Does that mean I can't do otherwise? No. It just means that I won't do otherwise. So my freedom is intact.

God's knowledge of D, you'll notice, is irrelevant. God's knowing D doesn't make D true. It's the other way around. D's being true is what gives God the particular knowledge he has about D. And D is true because, at the time specified in D, I freely take the actions specified in D. I could do otherwise, but as it happens, I won't.
 
CarlinKnew

CarlinKnew

Well-Known Member
Dunemeister said:
This is tantamount to saying that if there is a truth of the matter about the future, we have no free will, which is demonstrably false. Take this sentence:

D: Dunemeister will eat granola and yoghurt tomorrow morning at 8 A.M.

On what conditions could D be true? Well, it's true if I eat the specified food at the specified time. What would MAKE D true? Well, my decision at 8 A.M. tomorrow would. Will I do so or not? Right now, I don't know. But on the morrow I will find out.

So what if it's true? That is, what if it's true that at 8 A.M., I will eat granola and yoghurt tomorrow at 8? Does that mean I can't do otherwise? No. It just means that I won't do otherwise. So my freedom is intact.

God's knowledge of D, you'll notice, is irrelevant. God's knowing D doesn't make D true. It's the other way around. D's being true is what gives God the particular knowledge he has about D. And D is true because, at the time specified in D, I freely take the actions specified in D. I could do otherwise, but as it happens, I won't.
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In the case of omniscience, your choice is an illusion. You think you're free to choose otherwise, but you're not. God already knows what you'll choose. It's already been decided what you'll choose.
 
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