Omniscience + Creator = No Free Will

[CarlinKnew]

That does not negate free will if it is we who have done the choosing...

Thought it was clear when I said the choice was an illusion, but allow me to insert the key phrase which I mistakenly omitted.

It's already been decided what you think you'll choose.

 

[JMorris]

That does not negate free will if it is we who have done the choosing...

if the decision has already been made, how can you be sure it was you who made it? because it feels that way?

if the decision has already been made, then the thoughts leading to that decision has already been thought

how can you be sure any of these are your doing? because it feels that way? well your feelings were already decided! if the future isnt always being created, then how can you say your the one creating it?

 

[AlsoAnima]

Imagine for a minute that things exist outside of time. (Not such a hard concept if you accept that time is merely the interaction of light and matter.)

The creator exists outside of time, and therefore can see everything. To God past, present and future are all God's present.

 

[logician]

The existence of an omniscient god is impossible in a chaotic multiverse for 2 reasons.

Either

1.No god exists.

or

2. An omniscient god by definition would not create a chaotic universe.

I choose the former option.

 

[Mister Emu]

Thought it was clear when I said the choice was an illusion, but allow me to insert the key phrase which I mistakenly omitted.

It's already been decided what you think you'll choose.

You did, I was merely noting that the current existence of the future does not, in theory, mean that you are not the one who decides what actions to take...

if the decision has already been made, how can you be sure it was you who made it? because it feels that way?

if the decision has already been made, then the thoughts leading to that decision has already been thought

how can you be sure any of these are your doing? because it feels that way? well your feelings were already decided! if the future isnt always being created, then how can you say your the one creating it?

Not knowing if it is free will is not the same as free will not being possible...

 

[CarlinKnew]

You did, I was merely noting that the current existence of the future does not, in theory, mean that you are not the one who decides what actions to take...

It does. If God knows everything, then he knows exactly what you'll do with your life before he even creates you. All of your life's decisions have already been made for you by God before you were born, and you're nothing more than a puppet being pulled by the strings of God's plan.

 

[Mister Emu]

If God knows everything, then he knows exactly what you'll do with your life before he even creates you. All of your life's decisions have already been made for you by God

The second statement does not necessarily follow the first... that God knows does not mean God is the one who decided...

edit: for clarification

 

[CarlinKnew]

The second statement does not necessarily follow the first... that God knows does not mean God is the one who decided...

edit: for clarification

It does follow. God created you as you are, knowing what you will do. By creating you this way, he has made your decisions for you.

 

[Mister Emu]

It does follow. God created you as you are, knowing what you will do. By creating you this way, he has made your decisions for you.

That God created me knowing what I would do does not mean that God made my decisions for me... As I see it, there is a gap you are not bridging between knowledge and action

 

[CarlinKnew]

That God created me knowing what I would do does not mean that God made my decisions for me... As I see it, there is a gap you are not bridging between knowledge and action

By creating you in such a way that he knows what you'll do, he designed you like a human would design a robot to perform a specific task. The only differences are that he is God so his work is perfectly exact, and the 'task' is your life.

 

[logician]

That God created me knowing what I would do does not mean that God made my decisions for me... As I see it, there is a gap you are not bridging between knowledge and action

A supposed god could not have created you, you are a product of evolution. AS such you are a product of a random outcome.

 

[Dunemeister]

A supposed god could not have created you, you are a product of evolution. AS such you are a product of a random outcome.

Are you constitutionally unable to stay on point, or is trolling your favorite sport? The issue here is a THEOLOGICAL one. It can be engaged in whether or not you hold to the theology in question.

 

[Dunemeister]

In the case of omniscience, your choice is an illusion. You think you're free to choose otherwise, but you're not. God already knows what you'll choose. It's already been decided what you'll choose.

No. The question lurking behind this philosophical puzzle is whether the TRUTH of propositions about the future hinders our free will. It's the TRUTH of the proposition, not whether it's known by God, that is at issue. If the TRUTH of the proposition doesn't affect my freedom, then niether will God's knowledge of that proposition.

I have argued that propositions about the future can be true without hindering free will. At least, if we are to think their truth is a problem for free will, there needs to be some argument. Go back and re-read my previous post, and you'll see this.

Basically, God does not DECIDE for me. I'm the decider. God knows what he knows because I decide what I decide. In other words, God gets his knowledge about the world from what happens in the world. Of course, Christians do hold that God does determine at least some parts of world history (raising up one king and deposing another, for instance). But those are cases where God MAKES history, not merely KNOWS history.

There's a difference between God making things happen and God knowing what happens.

 

[Dunemeister]

if the decision has already been made, how can you be sure it was you who made it? because it feels that way?

if the decision has already been made, then the thoughts leading to that decision has already been thought

how can you be sure any of these are your doing? because it feels that way? well your feelings were already decided! if the future isnt always being created, then how can you say your the one creating it?

These questions are relevant to a generalized free will vs. determinism debate, but they are not relevant to the question at hand, namely, does God's knowledge of my future actions render me unfree?

 

[Mister Emu]

By creating you in such a way that he knows what you'll do, he designed you like a human would design a robot to perform a specific task.

That is not necessary... if God's omniscience is independent of His method of creation, no design is required...

 

[CarlinKnew]

Basically, God does not DECIDE for me. I'm the decider. God knows what he knows because I decide what I decide. In other words, God gets his knowledge about the world from what happens in the world. Of course, Christians do hold that God does determine at least some parts of world history (raising up one king and deposing another, for instance). But those are cases where God MAKES history, not merely KNOWS history.

There's a difference between God making things happen and God knowing what happens.

What you seem to be missing is that if God created you in such a way that he knew what you would do, he designed you like a robot. He is making things happen in that he made you, and you're performing the actions the way that he designed you to.

 

[CarlinKnew]

That is not necessary... if God's omniscience is independent of His method of creation, no design is required...

That's contradictory. If he's omniscient, everything is subject to his omniscience by definition.

 

[gzusfrk]

What you seem to be missing is that if God created you in such a way that he knew what you would do, he designed you like a robot. He is making things happen in that he made you, and you're performing the actions the way that he designed you to.

so God made you write this?

 

[CarlinKnew]

so God made you write this?

If an omniscient creator exists, yes.

 

[Mister Emu]

That's contradictory. If he's omniscient, everything is subject to his omniscience by definition.

That is true, and says nothing about my statement... I said that God's omniscience is independent of His method of creation... that is, it is not through the way He creates us(as robots that do as we are programmed) that He has foreknowledge...