Omniscience + Creator = No Free Will

[slave2six]

If the course of all future events is knowable, it must be predetermined.

Do we have free will? Of course, we have no choice in the matter

Cool! Then I can kill that jerk who stole my wallet and I'll just tell the judge, "It isn't my fault because I have no free will. Go prosecute God."

 

[MoonWater]

This is a fair point. If your definition of omniscience were the case then there need not be a contradiction with free will.

Question is – would any theists accept such a reduced omniscience for their god?

I hardly see how this is "reduced omniscience". Again I pose the questions: "Future events haven't yet happened, as such how can future events be "knowledge" in one's mind? They can be predictions and hypotheses but how can they be knowledge?"

Though to answer your question I am a theist who accepts this definition of omniscience for The Force(s) (the closest thing I have to a god(s)).

 

[MoonWater]

Yes. Omniscient means "having all knowledge," not "having all current knowledge."

Again I pose the questions: "Future events haven't yet happened, as such how can future events be "knowledge" in one's mind? They can be predictions and hypotheses but how can they be knowledge?"

Basically what this boils down to is defining what exactly knowledge is and when something moves from being say faith-based or hypothetical, to being actual knowledge. And also why does it happen it that particular "time" or "level" and not at some other "time" or "level"?

 

[MoonWater]

The existence of an omniscient god is impossible in a chaotic multiverse for 2 reasons.

Either

1.No god exists.

or

2. An omniscient god by definition would not create a chaotic universe.

I choose the former option.

This of course assumes that the universe is chaotic. It may seem so to us because we lack a complete understanding, but to a god who supposedly created it and is omniscient, he would also by definition have complete understanding of the universe and as such to him everything may seem to be quite orderly. Just look at nature for example: when a storm hits it seems like chaos to us, but something lead to that storm, some imbalance caused it to happen where it did when it did as it did. It wasn't random or out of the blue and the storm serves a distinct purpose. Doesn't sound very chaotic to me, even if it does look like it.

 

[Dunemeister]

What you seem to be missing is that if God created you in such a way that he knew what you would do, he designed you like a robot. He is making things happen in that he made you, and you're performing the actions the way that he designed you to.

Well, what if what he knew I would do was make free decisions? That is, perhaps God created me in such a way that I would make free decisions. If I work as planned, then I should be making decisions freely. This does not mean randomly or without reasons, but it does mean that I'm responsible because it's me and not God making the decisions. God's knowledge of what those future decisions are is, as I said earlier, is irrelevant.

 

[MoonWater]

Well, what if what he knew I would do was make free decisions? That is, perhaps God created me in such a way that I would make free decisions. If I work as planned, then I should be making decisions freely. This does not mean randomly or without reasons, but it does mean that I'm responsible because it's me and not God making the decisions. God's knowledge of what those future decisions are is, as I said earlier, is irrelevant.

Perhaps his omniscience is such that he knows all the possible paths decisions and outcomes, etc. that you could possibly make in your life. Je creates you such that you have all these possibilities to choose from in your life and how you live will determine which one's become reality.

 

[themadhair]

@ MoonWater

Remember that the claim is often made that god exists beyond time so the concept of ‘future knowledge’ may not even make sense.

Well, what if what he knew I would do was make free decisions? That is, perhaps God created me in such a way that I would make free decisions. If I work as planned, then I should be making decisions freely.

Then such a god was not omniscient at the time of creation.

God's knowledge of what those future decisions are is, as I said earlier, is irrelevant.

You are missing the point. Omniscience, in and of itself, doesn’t contradict free will (I disagree with CarlinKnew on this point). But an omniscient creator does. In such a circumstance god made you knowing exactly what you were going to do – that cannot be free will.

 

[Falvlun]

@ MoonWater

Remember that the claim is often made that god exists beyond time so the concept of ‘future knowledge’ may not even make sense.

Removing God from the timestream actually helps the free-will side.

If God is removed from time, then that means time itself can flow according to the nature of time: Past comes before present, present comes before future. You can not have a "future" action until the time before that action has occured. (Allowing God to exist in time, and giving him the power of future knowledge, means that God can bounce to the future before the present occurs, thus messing with the nature of time.)

Do you see the implications? If present comes before future, then all of the decisions leading up to that "future decision" are made by you. In effect, there is no "future decision" but only present decisions (which are compatible with free will.)

You are missing the point. Omniscience, in and of itself, doesn’t contradict free will (I disagree with CarlinKnew on this point). But an omniscient creator does. In such a circumstance god made you knowing exactly what you were going to do – that cannot be free will.

In a different thread, an excellent Asimov quote was given:

"There have always been ghosts in the machine. Random segments of code, that have grouped together to form unexpected protocols. Unanticipated, these free radicals engender questions of free will, creativity, and even the nature of what we might call the soul. Why is it that when some robots are left in darkness, they will seek out the light? Why is it that when robots are stored in an empty space, they will group together, rather than stand alone? How do we explain this behavior? Random segments of code? Or is it something more? When does a perceptual schematic become consciousness? When does a difference engine become the search for truth? When does a personality simulation become the bitter mote... of a soul? "

These "random segments of code" arise spontaneously, and create spontaneous responses. Could not a Creator God have built in a similar sort of randomness into his Creation?

 

[themadhair]

Do you see the implications? If present comes before future, then all of the decisions leading up to that "future decision" are made by you. In effect, there is no "future decision" but only present decisions (which are compatible with free will.)

Not sure I follow or agree with this. That you are a creation of something that knows what you are doing (to remove time from the equation) and determined or is determining that action through creation still seems to hold does it not?

Could not a Creator God have built in a similar sort of randomness into his Creation?

I don’t believe so. If god could create something that could act in way could couldn’t predict then is god really omniscient? Moreover – are you familiar with the problem of random number generation in computing?

 

[Wandered Off]

These questions are relevant to a generalized free will vs. determinism debate, but they are not relevant to the question at hand, namely, does God's knowledge of my future actions render me unfree?

My answer would be no, but the conditions that allow knowledge of the future do.

If your future already exists such that it could be known, then you are not free. The fact that God knows it is a potential effect if its existence, not the cause.

 

[Falvlun]

Not sure I follow or agree with this. That you are a creation of something that knows what you are doing (to remove time from the equation) and determined or is determining that action through creation still seems to hold does it not?

I believe you are making a third assumption: God created a deterministic universe.

I don’t believe so. If god could create something that could act in way could couldn’t predict then is god really omniscient? Moreover – are you familiar with the problem of random number generation in computing?

I ascribe to MoonWater's description of omniscience:
Omniscience only necessarily includes knowledge of everything that can be known. My personal favorite example: Does God know the gestation time of unicorns?

In other words, does omniscience require that God know every imaginary, non-existent thing? The future is one of those things that does not exist; thus, omniscience does not necessarily "need" to know it. In these sorts of debates, I see "knowledge of the future" as something separate from omniscience. Unless, of course, the future does exist, and then, as Wandered Off noted, it is not omniscience that causes free-will's demise; it is the construct of the universe that allows the future to exist (or to be predicted with 100% certainty) that causes free-will to poof into nothingness.

I am not familiar with the problem of random number generation in computing, however, I would assume that an omnipotent being would be able to figure a way to incooporate randomness into his creation (particularly if free-will is a characteristic he wants to bestow on said creation.)

 

[RomCat]

God does know the future.
That knowledge in no way keeps
you from making a free choice.
God knows the future free choices
you will make.

 

[CarlinKnew]

That is true, and says nothing about my statement... I said that God's omniscience is independent of His method of creation... that is, it is not through the way He creates us(as robots that do as we are programmed) that He has foreknowledge...

That doesn't matter. As long as he creates you, and he has the foreknowledge, it doesn't matter whether or not he gained the knowledge "through" creating you. That's beside the point. If the course of events in your future can be known, then it's impossible to stray from that known course.

 

[CarlinKnew]

I believe you are making a third assumption: God created a deterministic universe.


I ascribe to MoonWater's description of omniscience:
Omniscience only necessarily includes knowledge of everything that can be known. My personal favorite example: Does God know the gestation time of unicorns?

In other words, does omniscience require that God know every imaginary, non-existent thing? The future is one of those things that does not exist; thus, omniscience does not necessarily "need" to know it. In these sorts of debates, I see "knowledge of the future" as something separate from omniscience. Unless, of course, the future does exist, and then, as Wandered Off noted, it is not omniscience that causes free-will's demise; it is the construct of the universe that allows the future to exist (or to be predicted with 100% certainty) that causes free-will to poof into nothingness.

Yes, an omniscient creator would know all of that. He would know everything, he would have infinite knowledge. That includes the future, nonexistent 'things', everything. Everything means everything. That includes anything you can think of.

 

[themadhair]

I believe you are making a third assumption: God created a deterministic universe.

I believe this follows directly from the assumptions of creator and omniscience. That the universe would be deterministic to god is what my argument is based on.

I ascribe to MoonWater's description of omniscience:
Omniscience only necessarily includes knowledge of everything that can be known. My personal favorite example: Does God know the gestation time of unicorns?

I’m assuming that god’s omniscience as creator stretches to its creation, that god is omniscient with regard to the universe created.

I am not familiar with the problem of random number generation in computing, however, I would assume that an omnipotent being would be able to figure a way to incooporate randomness into his creation (particularly if free-will is a characteristic he wants to bestow on said creation.)

This is the problem – can an omniscient creator create free-will? I do not believe so, and if fact think the idea of creating free-will is directly contradictory to the premises of omniscience and creator. If such randomness could be introduced then such a creator isn’t omniscient.

That knowledge in no way keeps
you from making a free choice.

It does if that same knowledge was present when god created. By creating something while knowing everything that something will do is surely not free-will?

 

[Wandered Off]

I think you could make a reasonable case for omniscience to mean knowing all that is possible to know and disqualify the future from that to get around the interference with free will.

I can't get too attached to any meaning of the term anyway, since I view omniscience and omnipotence as human concepts invented to be the trump card in the 'my god can beat up your god' contest.

 

[themadhair]

I think you could make a reasonable case for omniscience to mean knowing all that is possible to know and disqualify the future from that to get around the interference with free will.

I can't get too attached to any meaning of the term anyway, since I view omniscience and omnipotence as human concepts invented to be the trump card in the 'my god can beat up your god' contest.

You ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

 

[CarlinKnew]

I think you could make a reasonable case for omniscience to mean knowing all that is possible to know and disqualify the future from that to get around the interference with free will.

I can't get too attached to any meaning of the term anyway, since I view omniscience and omnipotence as human concepts invented to be the trump card in the 'my god can beat up your god' contest.

'Possible' for whom though? For a human it's impossible to know the future, but we're not omniscient. 'Possible' is a limitation, and omniscience is beyond limitations by definition.

 

[Falvlun]

(Allowing God to exist in time, and giving him the power of future knowledge, means that God can bounce to the future before the present occurs, thus messing with the nature of time.)

Let me clarify this statement, because I have realized that it is actually contradictory to my core argument.

If God existed in time, then he would not be able to bounce to the future before it occurred. This would violate the nature of time, a law which we can presume that he set up as Creator. However, this seems to be the scenario many envision when they claim that God has "knowledge of the future".

If God were "outside of time", however, there would be no such thing as before and after, past, present, or future. There would only be "now", for lack of a better word.

How, then, could God know something before it happened? It all would be happening in the now.

 

[themadhair]

How, then, could God know something before it happened? It all would be happening in the now.

Which begs the response – in that scenario wouldn’t god simply be creating constantly with reference to us. Wouldn’t this be an even stronger case against free will if such creating were constant?