Omniscience + Creator = No Free Will

[Mister Emu]

In that case, free will is an illusion created by the limitation on our perspective.

Why? If actions are not being decided for you, free will exists...

 

[MoonWater]

@ MoonWater

Remember that the claim is often made that god exists beyond time so the concept of ‘future knowledge’ may not even make sense.

I know. But you were only speaking of an omniscient creator and how free will could exist with that. You never said anything about an omniscient god outside of time until now. So do you wish to move the goal posts to "how can free will exist with a god who is omniscient and exists outside of time?" or do you wish to keep them at "how can free will exist with an omniscient god?"

 

[Wandered Off]

Why? If actions are not being decided for you, free will exists...

I contend that if your actions exist from any perspective before you undertake them, you are incapable of acting in any way other than the pre-existing script, which is incompatible with free will. The fact that you don't know it only makes it appear that you had a choice, but you could only follow the path previously laid out.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I contend that if your actions exist from any perspective before you undertake them, you are incapable of acting in any way other than the pre-existing script, which is incompatible with free will. The fact that you don't know it only makes it appear that you had a choice, but you could only follow the path previously laid out.

Hmmm, can it be called "wasting your breath," when, in fact, you're typing it on a keyboard?

 

[Mister Emu]

I contend that if your actions exist from any perspective before you undertake them, you are incapable of acting in any way other than the pre-existing script, which is incompatible with free will.

I disagree as long as you are the one who determined what your actions would be...

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I disagree as long as you are the one who determined what your actions would be...

This actually gave me an idea for an actual logical solution:

Before we're all born, we sit down with god and go through our whole upcoming life, pre-determining all our decisions. Once they're all scripted, our memories are erased, we're born, and we follow through on our pre-determined course - yet, we actually exercised free-will in making the decisions initially.

Finally, a logical solution.

I guess if you want something done right, you do have to do it for yourself.

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

nope.

Why not?

 

[themadhair]

So why are you limiting the definition of omniscience in your OP?

I didn’t.

And I don't see why it is impossible for God to create a non-deterministic universe. He fulfills function as Creator. And he would know everything there is to know about that universe, fullfilling the terms of omniscient. The future simply wouldn't be one of those things to know (since there is no thing about it that can be known).

Not knowing the future means not omniscient. It is as simple as that. I should point out that I don’t think omniscience, in and of itself, is a sufficient condition for preventing free will. But I do think that both omniscience and creator are. The way I see it, for free will either creator or omniscience has to be false.

I'm not sure how your reply answers the contention that omniscience doesn't necessarily include knowledge of the future.

I use omniscience to mean absolute knowledge. From my experience this is the common meaning used by theist when god is described as omniscient.

How is free-will curtailed by God creating? (Unless, of course, he were creating the future?) I have a feeling I missed your point and I'm curious...

Let me take two scenarios separately so as to avoid confusion. If I don’t we’ll both end up confused.

Scenario 1 has god creating the universe and it develops along in a temporal manner. The creation event happened first (this will make more sense when I describe scenario 2)and the universe has been progressing from there ever since. This scenario is the one mentioned in the OP.

Scenario 2 has god existing outside time. In this scenario god doesn’t experience time so, in essence, is creating constantly (if that makes sense). Because of this god is constantly determining our actions. I’m not fond of this scenario because my mind can’t really comprehend a being not subjected to time. Even so, I don’t see how placing god beyond time would alter the fundamental argument that an omniscient creator prevents free will. It just means that, in this scenario at least, there is no future being predetermined.

This is all you can say? You lift a phrase out of context and make an irrelevant statement? I guess I shouldn't have bothered.

When you removed god from the picture your analogy was immediately faulty. If someone knows your future actions then you will not make any other choices – this doesn’t contradict free will for me since you are still making those decisions. The problem is that, when you don’t leave god out of the picture, things are somewhat different. The future would still be foreknown but there is one vital difference – god by creating set that scenario in motion determining your choice for you. The choice you will make has already been determined by god at creation – meaning god chose and not you.

But you were only speaking of an omniscient creator and how free will could exist with that.

I’ve never argued this. I’ve pretty much stuck to the claim that an omniscient creator is incompatible with free will.

You never said anything about an omniscient god outside of time until now. So do you wish to move the goal posts to "how can free will exist with a god who is omniscient and exists outside of time?" or do you wish to keep them at "how can free will exist with an omniscient god?"

To be fair I didn’t introduce the ‘god out of time’ concept. I responded to it with why I think it doesn’t change or fix the incompatibility of free will with an omniscient creator.

I disagree as long as you are the one who determined what your actions would be...

And if your actions were determined by an omniscient creator..?

 

[Dunemeister]

When you removed god from the picture your analogy was immediately faulty. If someone knows your future actions then you will not make any other choices – this doesn’t contradict free will for me since you are still making those decisions.

I removed god at first to show you that the issue isn't God's knowledge but the truth of a future-directed proposition. God's knowledge of a proposition doesn't affect anything because God's knowledge doesn't MAKE the proposition true. Our actions make them true (or false). God knows the truth of the proposition because we will do what we will do.

The problem is that, when you don’t leave god out of the picture, things are somewhat different. The future would still be foreknown but there is one vital difference – god by creating set that scenario in motion determining your choice for you. The choice you will make has already been determined by god at creation – meaning god chose and not you.

Here you equivocate. How does God "set that scenario in motion" merely by creating? IF you assume that the world is mechanistically deterministic, THEN of course God, by creating in one way rather than another, determines everything. But then the issue isn't omniscience but the mechanistic nature of reality.

 

[themadhair]

God's knowledge of a proposition doesn't affect anything because God's knowledge doesn't MAKE the proposition true.

But you are making the same mistake again. My OP is predicated upon both omniscience and creator. You can’t discard one of them in order to show the claim in the OP doesn’t hold when it is clear the OP is relying on both.

Here you equivocate. How does God "set that scenario in motion" merely by creating?

So creating doesn’t set that scenario in motion???? Seriously??? What the hell do you think creation means????

IF you assume that the world is mechanistically deterministic, THEN of course God, by creating in one way rather than another, determines everything. But then the issue isn't omniscience but the mechanistic nature of reality.

You miss the point. The universe is deterministic to god since god would, through omniscience, know the future course of events.

 

[Mister Emu]

And if your actions were determined by an omniscient creator..?

Then you would not have free will...

 

[MoonWater]

I’ve never argued this. I’ve pretty much stuck to the claim that an omniscient creator is incompatible with free will.

Perhaps I should have specified that you were asking "how it would be possible"

To be fair I didn’t introduce the ‘god out of time’ concept. I responded to it with why I think it doesn’t change or fix the incompatibility of free will with an omniscient creator.

I know you didn't introduce it. But you still brought it up as a way to counter the argument that I posed. But sense that condition wasn't in the OP to begin with you can't later use that condition as a counter argument as doing so is moving the goal posts, even if you were not the one to originally bring it up.

 

[Dunemeister]

But you are making the same mistake again. My OP is predicated upon both omniscience and creator. You can’t discard one of them in order to show the claim in the OP doesn’t hold when it is clear the OP is relying on both.

Right, my bad. I still don't see how God creating makes any difference whatsoever. If he created us with the ability to make free choices, then the only issue is omniscience. But as I've already shown, omniscience isn't the issue but the truth value of future-oriented propositions.

So creating doesn’t set that scenario in motion???? Seriously??? What the hell do you think creation means????

That's not what I said. I don't understand how setting a scenario in motion entails the sort of determinism you think it entails.

You miss the point. The universe is deterministic to god since god would, through omniscience, know the future course of events.

Why would it be deterministic to anyone, including God? Knowing the future and determining the future are two different things. WE determine the future by our actions. God knows the future because, although we can do whatever we want, God happens to know what it is we will do. His knowledge is predicated on our actions, not the other way around.

 

[Francis]

If god existed and were an omniscient creator then I contend we have no free will. God would know the future course of any creation by its omniscience. Thus, in the act of creation god determined the future course of that creation. Because god created, and knew the future course of that creation from ‘before’ (doesn’t make much sense but you get the idea) it created, we cannot have free will.

One of the most controversial ideas. What i wonder, though, is this; Does the fact that you don't always KNOW what you're going to choose affect it? I mean, when you think about it, you still do choose, as far as you're concerned. So, you have free will. Because you're choosing, even if God already chose. Maybe it's kinda like a child and his mother buying ice cream. The mother knows what she'll allow the child to get, but still gives the child a choice. the child doesn't know, but chooses something the mother approves of. The child still chose, of course, but the mother also chose for the child. Does that make sense? Peace!

 

[themadhair]

Perhaps I should have specified that you were asking "how it would be possible"

I do not believe I have done so. The argument as laid out in the OP has pretty much been in the same format from when I first composed it (with ‘omniscience’ exchanged for ‘all knowing&#8217. Having been thinking on this issue for nearly 15 years I’ve never believed free will is possible under the conditions of the OP. If there is a mistake in my reasoning then fair enough. But I’ve yet to see it.

But you still brought it up as a way to counter the argument that I posed.

I did not. You argued that future knowledge can only be based upon predictions. I countered this by stating that omniscience gives god future knowledge.

I still don't see how God creating makes any difference whatsoever. If he created us with the ability to make free choices, then the only issue is omniscience.

But the problem is whether an omniscient creator can create a being with free will. I do not believe this is possible. Such a god would know all your future actions, but because that god created you it also determined those actions. The decisions you take were already decided the moment god created.

I don't understand how setting a scenario in motion entails the sort of determinism you think it entails.

The OP requires both omniscience and creation, and here you have focused on creation while neglecting omniscience. God, through omniscience, would know the future course of its creations. That creation would be deterministic to god because of its omniscience.

Why would it be deterministic to anyone, including God?

Since god is omniscient then god must know the future of the universe. That makes the universe deterministic to god. If the universe wasn’t deterministic to god then god wouldn’t know the universe’s future – and thus god wouldn’t be omniscient.

Knowing the future and determining the future are two different things. WE determine the future by our actions. God knows the future because, although we can do whatever we want, God happens to know what it is we will do. His knowledge is predicated on our actions, not the other way around.

And now you have focused on omniscience while neglecting the creator aspect. Without the creator aspect I agree with your point. But when the creator aspect is reintroduced the scenario changes. Our actions were determined by creation, since god at that moment of creation knew how that creation would develop and run its course.

I mean, when you think about it, you still do choose, as far as you're concerned. So, you have free will.

You are referring to the illusion of free will or apparent free will. Whether or not we can differentiate between true free will and the illusion of free will isn’t actually important to the OP which is focused on true free will.

 

[blueman]

We do have free will. WHow would you explain the choices that people make everyday? As it relates to seeking a relationship with God, people have made decisions, of their own will, to accept His love through Christ or reject it. God is not controlling that decision like you're some robot.

 

[tumbleweed41]

what if I got in a time machine went to tommorow saw everything you did,came back to today,I would know everything, but you would still do what you do.

According to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, the mere fact that you observe something, changes the results.
And by coming back with the knowledge of the future, you have already changed the future, thus what you observed may not happen.

We can apply this to Gods "omniscience" also, the mere fact that God knows what you will do, changes the equation. So what he "knows" is uncertain, based on the observations made by God.

 

[Dunemeister]

Themadhair,

What you're saying is that if A knows what B will do at some future time, then A causes B so to act, particularly when A is the creator of B and the world B inhabits. You have given no particular reason to believe this. Please pony up, because the entailment is certainly not obvious.

 

[MoonWater]

I do not believe I have done so. The argument as laid out in the OP has pretty much been in the same format from when I first composed it (with ‘omniscience’ exchanged for ‘all knowing&#8217. Having been thinking on this issue for nearly 15 years I’ve never believed free will is possible under the conditions of the OP. If there is a mistake in my reasoning then fair enough. But I’ve yet to see it.

I was assuming that since you were arguing against an omniscient creator being compatible with free will there was the unspoken question in your mind about how such a thing would be possible, or how those who do believe it is possible think it is.

I did not. You argued that future knowledge can only be based upon predictions. I countered this by stating that omniscience gives god future knowledge.

You said that most people who assume omniscience in a creator also believe god to be outside of time. If that was not meant to counter my argument then why bring it up, what was your point? And I was actually arguing that future knowledge really isn't possible as the future hasn't happened yet, so how can it exist as knowledge. One can make educated guesses and predictions and may even be right most of the time. But how can that which has not yet happened be knowledge in someone's mind?

 

[themadhair]

What you're saying is that if A knows what B will do at some future time, then A causes B so to act, particularly when A is the creator of B and the world B inhabits.

Why are you implying that A causes B to act because of A’s foreknowledge? I’m not claiming that. What I am claiming is that because A created B, and had absolute foreknowledge of B’s actions during creation, it follows that B’s actions were chosen and determined by A.

You have given no particular reason to believe this.

Given that you restated my OP in a manner that did not accurately reflect it I’m not surprised. The OP requires both omniscience and creator. Every point you have thus far raised has revolved around the ignoring of one of those aspects to show the other lacking for the prevention of free will. You have to consider both.

I’ll break my claim down for you:
Premise 1 – God is omniscient.
Premise 2 – God is creator.

When god created (P2) it knew the future course of that creation (P1). By knowing the future course of creation at the moment of creation means that god determined the future course of that creation. Since god determined the course of that creation there can be no free will.

Note how the argument relies on both premises. Discarding one of those premises to show that the other isn’t sufficient isn’t addressing the argument. But discarding one premise to show the insufficiency of the other is what you have been doing Dunemeister