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On Evolution & Creation

GoodAttention

Well-Known Member
One of the things that puzzle me is that so many atheists, when converted, go to the opposite extreme and become Biblical literalists and creationists. I should have thought that in a Christian country a detailed study and a considered rejection of the Bible would be necessary for a person to reject Christianity and become an atheist.

This was what happened to me. I read the Bible and concluded that it is full of false history and false science, that it contains no knowledge that was not common at the time that it was written, that it shares the superstitions of its time, that its legal and moral precepts are those of barbarians, and that its claims to supernatural knowledge are disproved by the many prophecies that have been falsified by the passage of time. Having come to this conclusion, I am not likely to change my mind as a result of Christians quoting Bible verses to me.

Can you, therefore, explain to me how you became an atheist and a disbeliever in the Bible, and what evidence convinced you that you were wrong and that the Bible is true and should be taken literally?

I had a friend who essentially an atheist, raised in a Buddhist household, completing a degree in computer engineering, and certainly had no interest in Christianity. His mother was suddenly diagnosed with cancer and it wasn't looking good for her so one of our Christian friend started to pray with him. The mum survived, and ever since then he has been very much all about Jesus, praying every day, and very much focused on church activities.

Now he takes a literal reading of the scriptures, basically ignoring his science background completely. I think for him, his faith and trust in Jesus is more important than what science teaches us, but it was still bizarre to see him change so drastically.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
I had a friend who essentially an atheist, raised in a Buddhist household, completing a degree in computer engineering, and certainly had no interest in Christianity. His mother was suddenly diagnosed with cancer and it wasn't looking good for her so one of our Christian friend started to pray with him. The mum survived, and ever since then he has been very much all about Jesus, praying every day, and very much focused on church activities.

Now he takes a literal reading of the scriptures, basically ignoring his science background completely. I think for him, his faith and trust in Jesus is more important than what science teaches us, but it was still bizarre to see him change so drastically.
It is a variation on the Salem Hypothesis. The clue is that he did computer engineering in that engineering is often just the application of preset rules learned from a book that if combined diligently will lead to a useable outcome. What it is not is computer science which focuses on why things behave the way they do. Suddenly he is thrust into an environment that is not certain and doctors are trying this and maybe it will work but never guaranteeing an output. A long comes a teacher who says if you do this according to this book it will all work out. Luckily for his mother, the doctors applied the research and it did work out for her, but he found strength in believing in an alternate path without evidential backup from the understanding of a book the way he was comfortable with learning.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
It is a variation on the Salem Hypothesis. The clue is that he did computer engineering in that engineering is often just the application of preset rules learned from a book that if combined diligently will lead to a useable outcome. What it is not is computer science which focuses on why things behave the way they do. Suddenly he is thrust into an environment that is not certain and doctors are trying this and maybe it will work but never guaranteeing an output. A long comes a teacher who says if you do this according to this book it will all work out. Luckily for his mother, the doctors applied the research and it did work out for her, but he found strength in believing in an alternate path without evidential backup from the understanding of a book the way he was comfortable with learning.
Those who will always find Signs from God.

I was walking with a girl who found a falling maple leaf to be
a Sign of the Trinity.

Why then 5 parts?

Oh,it represents the Pentarch.

is that Salem Syndrome?
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
Those who will always find Signs from God.

I was walking with a girl who found a falling maple leaf to be
a Sign of the Trinity.

Why then 5 parts?

Oh,it represents the Pentarch.

is that Salem Syndrome?
no, that is already over the edge, the Salem hypothesis is that rabid creationists are often engineers because their background training and the people who take to the field are people who believe in orderly rule oriented things and are convinced because they know everything they need to know in their field from reading the appropriate table in a book, when challanged where they have to think, they find biblical literalism a reassuring out.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Look ! sure evolution could be involved in lower forms of life but that does Not mean including human life

Logically, why would it supposedly not include us? If we look at human evolution over the last 6 million years, there's some clear differences between us and the humans who existed more than 3 million years ago.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Logically, why would it supposedly not include us? If we look at human evolution over the last 6 million years, there's some clear differences between us and the humans who existed more than 3 million years ago.
I realize this to you will probably not answer the question, but from what I understand, it is humans (not monkeys) that conduct scientific experiments and in some cases test animals in cages.
 
Creation and Evolution are the same thing are they not? As the artist is creating his work is it not evolving and as it is evolving is it not also being created? However both are the result of Emanation ( Thought ) and Manifestation. Manifestation being the end result of both the creative and evolutionary process. Creation and Evolution are physical in nature but Emanation is Metaphysical and Manifestation is Spiritual. Only the Spiritual can permeate, pervade and perdure all things. The Holy Spirit is cohort to The Generative Word and moves and acts under the Power of said Generative Word. The body of Christ is The Generative Word and the Blood of Christ is the Holy Spirit. God is an uncaused cause that is both Essence (Love) and Existence (Life). Love is Metaphysical and Life is Spiritual and their physical aspects are what we experience although the "True" physical is both Metaphysical and Spiritual in nature.
Why did you have to go and mess up some good thoughts with christ
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Eh? What?? After death, decomposition begins. Cellular structure breaks down. Molecules leak into the soil. What possible physical evidence do you have that this process has ever been (or ever will be) reversed? And what about bodies that have been cremated?
Some cremated and some remains totally gone by atomic bombs, besides some drown at sea becoming fish food
In other words, resurrection has nothing to do with our present imperfect bodies
What is important is that we are in and remain in God's memory, in His Book of Life
To me the Bible is physical evidence. No one can get rid of the Bible or Bible people
The Bible is translated more than any other book
Even modern technology has made rapid Bible translation possible so remote translation offices can translate right were people live
Just as Jesus' recorded words say the good news of God's kingdom will be proclaimed internationally and it now is - Matthew 24:14
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
One of the things that puzzle me is that so many atheists, when converted, go to the opposite extreme and become Biblical literalists and creationists. I should have thought that in a Christian country a detailed study and a considered rejection of the Bible would be necessary for a person to reject Christianity and become an atheist.

This was what happened to me. I read the Bible and concluded that it is full of false history and false science, that it contains no knowledge that was not common at the time that it was written, that it shares the superstitions of its time, that its legal and moral precepts are those of barbarians, and that its claims to supernatural knowledge are disproved by the many prophecies that have been falsified by the passage of time. Having come to this conclusion, I am not likely to change my mind as a result of Christians quoting Bible verses to me.

Can you, therefore, explain to me how you became an atheist and a disbeliever in the Bible, and what evidence convinced you that you were wrong and that the Bible is true and should be taken literally?
It wasn't that I was a disbeliever in the Bible (because I did not do much reading of the Bible even though I respected it but was not taught it and did not understand it much), but rather, when I saw life around me, the horrible events such as genocides, plus things like some religions denying Christ as savior, that alongside with celebrations like Christmas and Easter, I began to figure there cannot be a God with all this confusion and conflict of religious ideas. Until something changed my mind quite some time later. (I do not take everything literally in the Bible, by the way.)
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Given that the theory of evolution is a fundamental part of most Biology courses (at high school level, at least), and the course content is backed by evidence from a variety of disciplines (genetics, ecology, behaviour, biochemistry, molecular biology, geology...), can you tell me - in your view- what should be taught instead? Straightforward biblical creationism? Intelligent design? If so, what evidence would teachers have to back up what they are teaching? Would the textbooks just be full of Genesis quotes?

The development of new vaccines and antibiotics depends on an understanding of the evolution of resistance in micro-organisms. I would much rather medical researchers are schooled in evidence-based evolutionary biology than relying on bible passages to inform their work. Wouldn't you?
Biblical genetic engineering:
37 "Jacob, however, took fresh-cut branches from poplar, almond and plane trees and made white stripes on them by peeling the bark and exposing the white inner wood of the branches. 38 Then he placed the peeled branches in all the watering troughs, so that they would be directly in front of the flocks when they came to drink. When the flocks were in heat and came to drink, 39 they mated in front of the branches. And they bore young that were streaked or speckled or spotted. 40 Jacob set apart the young of the flock by themselves, but made the rest face the streaked and dark-colored animals that belonged to Laban. Thus he made separate flocks for himself and did not put them with Laban’s animals."-- Genesis. 30: 37-40.

This is the biblical level of scientific understanding.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
One of the things that puzzle me is that so many atheists, when converted, go to the opposite extreme and become Biblical literalists and creationists. I should have thought that in a Christian country a detailed study and a considered rejection of the Bible would be necessary for a person to reject Christianity and become an atheist.

This was what happened to me. I read the Bible and concluded that it is full of false history and false science, that it contains no knowledge that was not common at the time that it was written, that it shares the superstitions of its time, that its legal and moral precepts are those of barbarians, and that its claims to supernatural knowledge are disproved by the many prophecies that have been falsified by the passage of time. Having come to this conclusion, I am not likely to change my mind as a result of Christians quoting Bible verses to me.

Can you, therefore, explain to me how you became an atheist and a disbeliever in the Bible, and what evidence convinced you that you were wrong and that the Bible is true and should be taken literally?
I get the impression that many "former atheist" claimants weren't atheist due to critical factual or logical analysis of theological claims. They weren't epistemically or logically persuaded. They weren't intellectual atheists.
I suspect most were just uninterested or religiously apathetic.
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Those who will always find Signs from God.

I was walking with a girl who found a falling maple leaf to be
a Sign of the Trinity.

Why then 5 parts?

Oh,it represents the Pentarch.

is that Salem Syndrome?
Basic or apophenia or pareidolea.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Look ! sure evolution could be involved in lower forms of life but that does Not mean including human life
Adam was formed or fashioned from the existing dust of the already existing ground - Gen. 2:7
So, where human life is concerned evolution is Not part of it
What's a "lower form of life?"
 

Hooded_Crow

Taking flight
Some cremated and some remains totally gone by atomic bombs, besides some drown at sea becoming fish food
In other words, resurrection has nothing to do with our present imperfect bodies
Yet you said in an earlier post:

"In the Bible ALL the resurrections Jesus performed were physical resurrections, and I suppose since we have Not yet seen that happen lots of people think they are still alive when they die, that is where the myth enters into the picture."

So are we talking actual bodily resurrection or not?
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I get the impression that many "former atheist" claimants weren't atheist due to critical factual or logical analysis of theological claims. They weren't epistemically or logically persuaded. They weren't intellectual atheists.
I suspect most were just uninterested or religiously apathetic.
Or got away from the church as teenagers but fell back in.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Quite right. Would you like another example? Australopithecines (such as 'Lucy') were apes. Humans are descended from australopithecines. Therefore humans are apes. We have not evolved into animals that are not apes. QED.

Immediately, from the collapse of the dense core of an interstellar molecular cloud to produce an O or early B-type star with a mass of more than 8 solar masses. Ultimately, from the H+He mixture produced by the expansion of the universe from an initial ultra-high-temperature ultra-high-density state.

So far as the evidence goes, your first sentence may be correct, provided that you are saying that God supplied the energy for the Big Bang, not that he created the galaxies and the stars (including the Sun) in their present condition. Of course, this is a faith position, with no evidence to support it.

Your second sentence is certainly false; there is abundant evidence of how animals and plants have evolved since the Cambrian period.

Science cannot prove that there is no God; it deals with natural phenomena, not with the supernatural. However, my experience has been different from yours. It took four years of careful study of the Bible to convince me that Christianity is false. Obviously I could not spend the same time on the other religions of the world (Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, the religions of ancient Greece and Rome, etc.), but once I had concluded that Christianity was false I reasoned that I was likely to come to the same conclusion about other religions. I did try to read the Bhagavad Gita, but it meant nothing to me. I suppose that an educated Hindu who tried to read the Bible would find it equally meaningless.

However, your belief in your God and my conviction that there are no gods is a matter of your word against mine; there is no way of showing whether either of us is right. If all you claim is that your God exists, I have no quarrel with you. It is when you start claiming, on the basis of your religious faith, that the results of scientific research are false that we are likely to quarrel.

No. The first human (Homo habilis?) was born as a baby and was nourished and cared for by its parents and by other members of its community. That was how it survived to adulthood.

I can't explain how the universe began; if I, or anybody else, could explain it, it would be in complex mathematical formulae and you would not be able to understand it. You could try reading The Grand Design by Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow and A Universe from Nothing by Lawrence Krauss.

However, you are making the false inference that if scientists don't know everything, they don't know anything. Although scientists don't know how the universe or life began, other findings of science do not depend on their knowing about these beginnings. There is compelling evidence that the universe began about 13.8 billion years ago; that hydrogen, helium and lithium were formed during the first few minutes of the expansion of the universe, and that the first galaxies and stars were formed within a few hundred million years after the 'Big Bang'. None of these conclusions depend on our knowing the source of the energy required to form the universe.

The same is true of the evidence that the Sun was formed about 4567 million years ago by the collapse of the dense core of an interstellar molecular cloud, that the Earth is about 30 million years younger than the Sun and was formed in a protoplanetary disc surrounding the Sun, and that the Moon was formed by a collision between the Earth and a smaller planet about 50-70 million years after the formation of the Earth, not four days after.

I know nothing about abiogenesis. However, I think that it is something of a red herring. If life is as scarce in the universe as it appears to be, it seems very unlikely that the universe was designed as a home for life. In any case, there is compelling evidence that simple forms of terrestrial life existed at least 3500 million years and that they have evolved into more complex life-forms since then. None of this depends on our knowing how the first life originated from systems of organic compounds.
If all you want is a correlation, then knowledge of origins are not needed. But all rational models, which are more advanced, do benefit and even need origins. The current model for evolution, assumes there is no sense of direction to evolution, therefore it is hard to predict. While the current universe model assumes there is no center of the universe, even though the BB model, conceptually, implies a point of origin; an original center. These empirical models both assume a confusing gap of dice and cards. Logic and evolution have a sense of direction; 2nd law has to increase. The 2nd law over time is not random but net increases.

Entropy is also a state variable meaning any state of matter has a constant amount of entropy. Species represent entropic states, with the gap between species, imply these states are quantified; jumps and not continuous. Distinct species cannot breed with other distinct species. Evolution has to follow a narrower species path.

Putting aside the data and theory content of both Evolution and Creation, the fundamental science approach of Creation; done by a creator, assumes logic. It assumes an omniscience God had a plan; brooding, and then a blue print; rational model (divine plan). It is more like applied science or the God, the architect, getting the plan ready, leaving little to chance. It is evolution that assumes dice and cards or the older approach of the whims of the gods, instead of a logical plan. The universe and life happened on a random whim, which is a primitive science approach, stuck at empirical.

I would be more impressed if evolution was more rational, with future things more easily inferred and deduced even before finding fossils. That would be more advanced, but it will also require more knowledge of origin; abiogenesis.

Abiogenesis, to me, is similar to the original state of evolution, that I call chemical evolution. Chemical evolution, by natural selection, would eventually lead to self replicators, which become the origin of the evolutionary theory. If a form of early chemical evolution was the case, did that chemical evolution stage stop, when the replicators appeared? Or does this nanoscale version of evolution; chemical, still run parallel to the macro changes, inferred from fossils and Evolution, proper? My guess is it still runs parallel; origins. Natural selection at the nanoscale follows natural selection at the macro-scale and vice versa. Dice and card is more of a way to average these unknown but logical chemical processes, behind continued chemical evolution, But an average does not give all the needed details for a rational model.

The most logical chemical behind natural chemical selection at the nanoscale of life, is water. Water forms hydrogen bonds, with each water molecule able to form up to four hydrogen bonds, with other water. This is very stabilizing to water and give it water high boiling point for such a small molecule.

The fluidity of life processes is based on secondary bonding forces, that can break and reform, with the hydrogen bonding the strongest secondary bonding force used by life. DNA, RNA and protein all inherited this from water. Water is given off when they polymerize. With water the dormant hydrogen bonding material, both in shear number of molecules; 100 times as many water molecules as all the rest, combined, and water has to largest total number of aqueous hydrogen bonds, it is the most logical source for natural selection at the nanoscale; big dog of secondary bonding, running the show.

Water is optimized to itself, since it can form up to four hydrogen bonds with other water molecules. While all organics in water, will raise the surface tension in the water to some extent; breaks one of more hydrogen bonds between water. This is why even soluble organics in water, like alcohol; ethyl alcohol, will alter the natural surface tension of the body's water; increase, and this can cause equilibrium changes, not always for the best; brain, skin, liver, kidneys, blood vessels, etc. Stopping can reverse this; lowers global surface tension.

When any organic is placed in water, the water will feel the deficit, and try to minimize the surface tension, which then forces these organics to accommodate. Proteins are packed and folded, by water, to minimize their surface tension in water. Water is like a bunch of army ants that can, as a team, man handle larger objects like protein. The final shape is bioactive. The protein will not just assume that state, if water was not present or if you add another solvent. If water folded a new style protein, and there is residual surface tension, there is a lingering surface potential for change, until that ship is rightened.

The lowering of surface tension of organics in water also places protein, for example, into lower entropy states. There is more complexity or freedom, all stretched out wiggling. The lowering of surface tension comes first; enthalpy and entropy loss. The containment, to lower surface tension, creates an entropic potential; a target for the 2nd law. This helps the nanoscale odd makers by loading the dice in a specific game. Reactions on enzymes is a way to satisfy the 2nd law.

Water, 3-D hydrogen bonding liquid continuum, organic surface tension, lowering organic entropy, entropic potential; selective change. Water is near and far for both global and selective local changes. While evolution of cells; organic structure, alter the global water set point.
 
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