On Pederasty & Pedophilia

[Storm]

The OP is basically a defense of pedastry (sex with pubescent children). My argument is that the difference between pedastry and pedophilia is marginal at best

No, not at all. Most importantly, it's not "pubescent children" it's post-pubescent youth. Your red herring of "11 year old with pubes" doesn't change the fact that a biologically mature person is not a child.

Furthermore, it's not even a defense of pederasty, but a call for re-examination.

 

[HerDotness]

Does anyone here know anything about Shinto ? I read many years ago that it was common practice in Japan for lovers to have a child present during sex. This was part of the child's sexual education, I don't know if it was considered erotic for the adults, but I got the impression from what I read that it was. I also don't know the degree to which the child was sexually involved, or the age at which this was considered appropriate.

Can anyone educate us about this ?

I'm no expert on Shinto, but what I've read on it--a couple of books--said nothing whatsoever about such a practice being part of Shinto.

Since Shinto is a folk-based faith akin to Paganism in that regard, perhaps some people thought this practice was part of the faith or justified it by saying it was, no idea myself.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

No, not at all. Most importantly, it's not "pubescent children" it's post-pubescent youth. Your red herring of "11 year old with pubes" doesn't change the fact that a biologically mature person is not a child.

Furthermore, it's not even a defense of pederasty, but a call for re-examination.

This is from Wiki so take it for what it's worth

"Pederasty or Paederasty (US: /ˈpɛdəræsti/, UK: /ˈpiːdəræsti/) is a (usually erotic) relationship between an older man and an adolescent boy outside his immediate family. The word pederasty derives from Greek (paiderastia) "love of boys",[2] a compound derived from παῖς (pais) "child, boy" and ἐραστής (erastēs) "lover"."



"Age range
Some modern observers restrict the age of the younger partner to "generally between twelve and seventeen",[7] though historically the spread was somewhat greater. The younger partner must, in some sense, not be fully mature; this could include young men in their late teens or early twenties.[8]
While relationships in ancient Greece involved boys from 12 to about 17 or 18 (Cantarella, 1992), in Renaissance Italy they typically involved boys between fourteen and nineteen,[9] and in Japan the younger member ranged in age from 11 to about 19 (Saikaku, 1990; Schalow, 1989).[10]"

 

[Storm]

This is from Wiki so take it for what it's worth

"Pederasty or Paederasty (US: /ˈpɛdəræsti/, UK: /ˈpiːdəræsti/) is a (usually erotic) relationship between an older man and an adolescent boy outside his immediate family. The word pederasty derives from Greek (paiderastia) "love of boys",[2] a compound derived from παῖς (pais) "child, boy" and ἐραστής (erastēs) "lover"."



"Age range
Some modern observers restrict the age of the younger partner to "generally between twelve and seventeen",[7] though historically the spread was somewhat greater. The younger partner must, in some sense, not be fully mature; this could include young men in their late teens or early twenties.[8]
While relationships in ancient Greece involved boys from 12 to about 17 or 18 (Cantarella, 1992), in Renaissance Italy they typically involved boys between fourteen and nineteen,[9] and in Japan the younger member ranged in age from 11 to about 19 (Saikaku, 1990; Schalow, 1989).[10]"

You couldn't even add emphasis to entire sentences. It's important to read what other people write, and not just the parts you expect or want.

At any rate, I never said we should revive the historical practice of ancient cultures, only reexamine our modern laws.

 

[nnmartin]

how about a man and a youngish girl - what is that called and why the difference?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I'll rubberstamp the above.

Pederasty among the Ancient Greeks in particular was regarded as a relationship more hallowed than heterosexual ones. To be chosen as the lover of a military hero was a high honor and unlikely to be refused since it often resulted in elevation from one social stratum to another via the advantages that came from the relationship.

If I'm not mistaken, such a relationship was regarded as honoring the family of the young male chosen as well.

These were consensual relationships, although there probably were some where pressure was brought to bear upon a heterosexual teenager who wasn't that enthusiastic about the idea, humans being the not-always-honorable characters we can be. That's only speculation, and probably quite unjust speculation. We can't ever know, obviously, how the participants felt about the relationship.

Careful, here. The only source for this are philosophers and writers who were guided by misogyny (women were dysfunctional males, that's why relations with men were preferred by these folks). But there are also dissenting voices, like Pseudo-Plutarch who called pederastic relationships "unfavored favor," pointing to the nature of unwillingness of the younger party, and it's safe to assume I think that the author had some experience with this.

Also, with Greeks, women were confined to the household -- a glorification of male homosexuality was directly related to this.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I'm against statutory rape when two people of about the same age have sex. An eighteen year old should not be labeled a sex offender for life if they had sex with someone just a few months younger than them. This is an abuse of the law.

 

[nnmartin]

most countries seem to have the age of consent set at 16 and some at 14 - so who is to say that someone must be 18 anyway?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

The person who has enough public clout to be able to sway people's minds (generally someone with a high degree of public exposure, or who has significant influence over those to whom they are exposed)... democracy isnt about the will of the masses, its about the will of those whom are able to influence the masses.

 

[Me Myself]

I´ve seen some pretty well developed 14 year olds.

It´s just nice knowing I have the option in my country

Quite honestly, people develop psychologically at different ages. Some never develop even after 50. We all know that 18+ and beyond can be quite abusable too. (not that it is moral, but it is easy with a lot of 18+)

It´s a gray line.

 

[nnmartin]

if a woman had a baby at 17 could she be locked up for having broken the law?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

It would depend on the jurisdiction... in some places she might get stoned, other places flogged, other places locked up, other places nothing... it isnt really about whether or not she is really ready for sexual activity (let alone being a parent) but rather whether or not society is willing to accept that she is.

 

[nnmartin]

what strikes me as odd is that a 17 year old man could go to war and kill, but not be allowed to bed his girlfriend.

something not right there.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Indeed, very messed up.

Its wonderful to think that you might be called upon to fight for, suffer for and perhaps even die for the freedoms of others when you will not be extended those same freedoms yourself.

The issue at hand I believe is that society thinks that someone is capable of making the decision to risk their life in service, yet are not capable of deciding that their hand is insufficient to meet their needs.

 

[nnmartin]

I always thought it strange that you could have sex, babies and get married at 16 or 17, but could not buy pornography until 18. (where I'm from anyway)

how does that work?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

...... Silence you! It makes sense if you realise that ummm... we need people to have more kids but we don't wan't them to be subjected to, nay potentially damaged by, all the sick sorts of perversions out there.

It is because of SOCIETY in this case, which is actually the only real area where pederasty and paedophilia differ... in that pederasty is culturally endorsed paedophilia, whereas paedophilia is a culturally rejected sexual exploitation of someone deemed incapable of giving their informed consent to that sexual activity.

 

[Viker]

I always thought it strange that you could have sex, babies and get married at 16 or 17, but could not buy pornography until 18. (where I'm from anyway)

how does that work?

Because porn is way more dangerous and destructive than marriage or even war. And a year to think about the horrific consequences of that disastrous industry of porn is almost too soon. I have always thought the legal age to purchase porn should be 19 and a half.







I couldn't type that with a straight face either.

 

[dust1n]

The OP is basically a defense of pedastry (sex with pubescent children). My argument is that the difference between pedastry and pedophilia is marginal at best

Well, looking back, I can see you don't seem to be understanding of what Storm is talking about. I never saw a defense of pedastry as an institution, or a defense of sex with pubescent children. It seems she is claiming that it would be unwise to illegalize all pedastry with a blanket law due to the more innocent nature of some relationships that take place between those that are less than 18 and 18 or older.

 

[Drolefille]

Well, looking back, I can see you don't seem to be understanding of what Storm is talking about. I never saw a defense of pedastry as an institution, or a defense of sex with pubescent children. It seems she is claiming that it would be unwise to illegalize all pedastry with a blanket law due to the more innocent nature of some relationships that take place between those that are less than 18 and 18 or older.

Additionally conflating pedophilia with pederasty is inaccurate even if the two can overlap in the extremes.

/is a fan of 'Romeo and Julilet' laws.

 

[nnmartin]

what do we call 50 year old man with 17 year old girl?