On the showing of the “pride flag, and appropriate activism.

[Zwing]

You sound very shy. Lol.

I’ll admit… (much to my consternation during high school)

 

[Zwing]

I will say, the US has a kind of an odd hang up about it.
Like I grew up on nudity, sex talks, frank sex education ect.
That doesn’t seem to be the experience when I speak to Americans (not all.)
So I’m perfectly okay with discussing my sexual needs among my friends. My US friends…ehhhh it differs

That’s quite interesting. I never knew, and would have imagined otherwise. Maybe the Puritans yet live within us, exerting their sway…I dunno.

 

[Zwing]

Also proud to be heterosexual flags along with it.

This reminds me of a thought that I’ve had in the past, which I have not recalled during this entire discussion as yet: why pride? In other words, why do we see people expressing “pride” over something so universal among we mammals as sexuality? It’s kind of like declaring that one is proud to have a big toe, y’know what I mean? Of course, I know the answer: the expression of “pride” is reactionary, a reaction to centuries of being shamed. It is yet a most curios phenomenon.

 

[Zwing]

Maybe they could have a flag that has redbirds, orange birds, yellow birds, green birds, bluebirds, and violet birds.

Rainbow Birds by Antony Galbraith

Rainbow Birds Painting by Antony Galbraith

fineartamerica.com

You win the prize for idea of the week!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Eh.

Are you aware of the origins of Pride?

Police at Pride events is... controversial.

 

[Zwing]

Trust me on this -- if love is involved in whatever you're doing, "humping" isn't ever a part of it.

This is a different issue, and I won’t pursue it beyond this post (I spent almost all of yesterday chatting here, and today I have to get a few things done, OMG!), but I would say to this that I think the connection that people often imagine between love and sex is a mistake. I don’t think that love has much of anything to do with sex, and vice-versa. Of course, I suppose that one can feel both love and lust for the same person. To answer your thought more directly, though, I would say that if the “sex” involves intercourse of any description, then “humping” is a (somewhat embarrassingly) necessary part of how we mammals “get the job done”. I once had a little doggie who seemed to be convinced of that!

 

[wellwisher]

Hey all. I had an experience earlier today which was a bit disturbing to me. I had occasion to stop at the local Audubon society center (Audubon - Wikipedia), and was surprised to encounter two so-called “pride flags” (the banner supporting homosexual rights) being displayed on the premises, while there are no other flags in evidence. My personal opinion about homosexuality is that it is no big deal, ever being an occasional natural occurrence in the population, and that in any case sexuality is a personal issue which should have no bearing on day-to-day social interaction.

I support the idea that homosexuals shouldn’t be discriminated against, and to that end I support the showing of the pride flag where doing so is appropriate and meaningful. An example of this is the showing of that banner by a welcoming Christian church; since Christianity has a history of anti-homosexual rhetoric and action, such a showing sends the message that “this particular church welcomes you”, and this justifies the flag being flown within that context. I can, however, see no similar justification for the “pride flag” to be flown on the premises of an environmental/naturalist center. Is there some history of environmental centers discriminating against homosexuals, of which I am unaware, and which might be said to justify such a showing, especially where no other flags, including the American flag, are flown?

I sought out an Audubon staff member, that I might express my feeling of impropriety to context. I was told by her that the flags were being shown to express support for “gay rights”. I responded that I didn’t think there to exist any supposition that the Audubon Society or any other environmental organization sought to discriminate against homosexuals or otherwise abrogate such “gay rights”. I was then favored with the spectacle of witnessing the woman shrugging her shoulders and saying, “well, that’s what we do here”. I then said to her that “Jews have faced quite a bit discrimination in this country and in all countries where they have represented a diasporic presence, why don’t you fly an Israeli flag as well? For that matter, why don’t you show an American flag?” Again, I was favored with the shrug, and a hearty “I got nothin’ for ‘ya”.

What do you make of this? Is it not inappropriate to show the “pride flag” within such a context? Is this a case of misplaced and inappropriate activism? Your thoughts and discussion please.

What strikes me odd is the pride flag is a flag to a choice of life style, instead of a flag to character. It is like having a video gamer flag or a dog lover flag. Although I like playing video games and I also like dogs, that seems out of place, these are not central to who I am. I prefer think I am more than just that.

Shallow people, who put all their eggs in one shallow surface basket, need too much attention. I have enough to do, looking deeper into myself, to have to float in the shallows of other's people's pride in a life style; good job, good job. Now, I must get back to work.

Country flags, like the America Flag or the British flags are there to define social and physical boundaries. As we pass from country to country, the flags change to reflect change in the physical boundaries and unique cultures. A pride flag is sort of setting it own boundaries, based on a lifestyle which tends to exclude others, who are not playing the same game. If you guys wish to be a separate country, you also need to respect the boundaries of others.

In war, as each national army advances into enemy territory, they take down the enemy flag, and plant their own flag, to show this is now their space. The invasion of the Audubon space may be felt by some like an enemy invasion. Audubon was founded on the love of birds, not some life style that has nothing to do with birds.

The Supreme Count allows the burning of the American Flag. Does that mean any flag is game, if someone feels their space is being invaded by an outsider force with a flag? Pride groups should do like gamers do, which is meet among peers in big events, not forcing everyone to sit and watch. They come if they want, but nobody is forced to pretend, if they are not gamers. This forcing can be mistaking for a foreign invasion, planting their flag.

It pays to think deeper, so you do not created an excuse for others to reinvade the space you took from them; self fulfilling prophesy. It almost looks like this approach is based on negative attention being better than no attention at all. This could be at the heart of this lifestyle. It is like the annoying child who needs constant attention, and soon gets on your nerves. In the end, they like being yelled at, more than ignored. They invade and then complain, now with a flag planting like in a war invasion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What strikes me odd is the pride flag is a flag to a choice of life style, instead of a flag to character. It is like having a video gamer flag or a dog lover flag. Although I like playing video games and I also like dogs, that seems out of place, these are not central to who I am. I prefer think I am more than just that.

Shallow people, who put all their eggs in one shallow surface basket, need too much attention. I have enough to do, looking deeper into myself, to have to float in the shallows of other's people's pride in a life style; good job, good job. Now, I must get back to work.

Country flags, like the America Flag or the British flags are there to define social and physical boundaries. As we pass from country to country, the flags change to reflect change in the physical boundaries and unique cultures. A pride flag is sort of setting it own boundaries, based on a lifestyle which tends to exclude others, who are not playing the same game. If you guys wish to be a separate country, you also need to respect the boundaries of others.

In war, as each national army advances into enemy territory, they take down the enemy flag, and plant their own flag, to show this is now their space. The invasion of the Audubon space may be felt by some like an enemy invasion. Audubon was founded on the love of birds, not some life style that has nothing to do with birds.

The Supreme Count allows the burning of the American Flag. Does that mean any flag is game, if someone feels their space is being invaded by an outsider force with a flag? Pride groups should do like gamers do, which is meet among peers in big events, not forcing everyone to sit and watch. They come if they want, but nobody is forced to pretend, if they are not gamers. This forcing can be mistaking for a foreign invasion, planting their flag.

It pays to think deeper, so you do not created an excuse for others to reinvade the space you took from them; self fulfilling prophesy. It almost looks like this approach is based on negative attention being better than no attention at all. This could be at the heart of this lifestyle. It is like the annoying child who needs constant attention, and soon gets on your nerves. In the end, they like being yelled at, more than ignored. They invade and then complain, now with a flag planting like in a war invasion.

Growing up, my elementary school always flew this flag under the national flag:

Elmer the Safety Elephant symbolized the institution's commitment to protecting children from hazards like car crashes and household accidents.

Today, we have the Pride flag, symbolizing the institution's commitment to rights and dignity for LGBTQ people.

I don't remember anyone ever freaking out about the Elmer flag the way people do about the Pride flag. This tells me that the objection isn't about some general principle on non-national flags. The objection is about what the Pride flag specifically represents.

It should seem obvious, but objections to the Pride flag are rooted in objections to the idea of rights and dignity for LGBTQ people. I also think that hand-waving about other issues - like you're doing in this post - comes out of self-awareness that your real reasons for the ban are wrong, or at least socially unacceptable.

 

[Father Heathen]

What strikes me odd is the pride flag is a flag to a choice of life style,

It isn't.

 

[Father Heathen]

If straight is a lifestyle, they all are.

It isn't.

 

[Zwing]

Growing up, my elementary school always flew this flag under the national flag:

If the Canadian flag were not so distinctive, I would advise you to vote that in as the national flag!

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The whole "Pride" thing is so over the top days that it is nausiating to this old gay man. My guess is that it is based on straight people scoring intersectional oppression points to assauge their collective guilt.

It's you having the emotional reaction here. I'm not bothered by anything LGBTQ. It's unfamiliar to me, and I'm not paying much attention to specific issues (drag shows, hormones and surgery issues, school library issues), but seeing unfamiliar looking people living unfamiliar lives gives me no negative feeling. My only reaction is to wish them luck in their struggles.

I'm a retired, straight, white, male, liberal, agnostic atheist, and humanist. What guilt do you suppose I harbor, and for what?

Notice how anyone who says anything contrary to all this BS is immediately jumped on nowadays

But it's you doing the jumping on others. You already jumped on straight people and expressions of LGBTQ pride, and now you're trying to head off criticism by jumping on those who you predict will jump on you. Do you consider my replies to you jumping on you?

I think that the consideration that people in the American south are more predisposed to homophobia is, itself, an example of prejudice.

If you mean an irrational prejudice or bias, that's only the case if it's not a valid generalization. If the fraction of homophobic Southerners is higher than the national average, then the statement is a fact and belief in that is justified. We all have rational prejudices such as against drunk driving, and they are a good thing. There are many unflattering things commoner in the American South than in the nation overall. From Opinion | The Worst (and Best) Places to Be Gay in America (Published 2017) :

 

[anna.]

It's you having the emotional reaction here. I'm not bothered by anything LGBTQ. It's unfamiliar to me, and I'm not paying much attention to specific issues (drag shows, hormones and surgery issues, school library issues), but seeing unfamiliar looking people living unfamiliar lives gives me no negative feeling. My only reaction is to wish them luck in their struggles.

I'm a retired, straight, white, male, liberal, agnostic atheist, and humanist. What guilt do you suppose I harbor, and for what?

But it's you doing the jumping on others. You already jumped on straight people and expressions of LGBTQ pride, and now you're trying to head off criticism by jumping on those who you predict will jump on you. Do you consider my replies to you jumping on you?

If you mean an irrational prejudice or bias, that's only the case if it's not a valid generalization. If the fraction of homophobic Southerners is higher than the national average, then the statement is a fact and belief in that is justified. We all have rational prejudices such as against drunk driving, and they are a good thing. There are many unflattering things commoner in the American South than in the nation overall. From Opinion | The Worst (and Best) Places to Be Gay in America (Published 2017) :

View attachment 78972

The graphics tell the tale. Thanks for posting.

 

[VoidCat]

As a gay man I cannot remember the last time I heard any kind of homophobic slur or was treated poorly because I was gay. In my experience, reality is quite the opposite and the so-called "gay community" is pretty much a highly protected class that no one (in their right mind) would consciously target. I do not see homophobia as being prevelant at all, let alone being "so prevalent in the US that any organization proclaiming themselves as gay-friendly is useful information". That is patently absurd.

As a nonbinary person who is attracted to both men and women...

I can remember a lot of times i was treated poorly cuz I'm trans. Some recently.

 

[fantome profane]

If the Canadian flag were not so distinctive, I would advise you to vote that in as the national flag!

I love the Canadian flag!

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Hi again, Mr. Penguin. Personally, I take exception to what you are claiming here. As a gay man I cannot remember the last time I heard any kind of homophobic slur or was treated poorly because I was gay. In my experience, reality is quite the opposite and the so-called "gay community" is pretty much a highly protected class that no one (in their right mind) would consciously target. I do not see homophobia as being prevelant at all, let alone being "so prevalent in the US that any organization proclaiming themselves as gay-friendly is useful information". That is patently absurd.

In regards to so-called "Pride flags", I could care less about them. It would not occur to me to enter a shop BECAUSE they had a fricken Pride Flag up. The weird part is that this isn't really being pushed by the so-called "gay community" (which isn't really even a community) but is actively promoted by straight people in order to make themselves feel better about being such pricks for so long towards gay people. Why not call them Guilty Conscience Flags as that is all they are. Me? The whole thing is over-blown pandering to a group of people who no longer need protection.

I could be wrong, but ... I know, I am not.

I still hear the term "gay" being used as an adjective for negative things. It's a word that is being used now for two things: homosexuality and bad things. I also still hear the term "***" (it starts with "f") used to describe gay people. Maybe there's a regional difference. Much of this seems connected to older folks seeing gay people kissing in commercials and on TV, or being open about it in public. Maybe rural Maine just needs to catch up?

Regardless, it wasn't so long ago that even the idea of civil unions for gay couples, or gay adoption was so controversial that it dominated politics. That progress enough has been made that companies are hedging their bets on supporting the community is somewhat good to see for me.

 

[anna.]

Then, I consider it appropriate

If everybody on the street were to begin displaying the flag on their houses, however, I would consider it inappropriate

You can consider it until the cows come home, as is your right. It's their right to express their own kind and degree of appropriateness.

Do you agree?

 

[Zwing]

I love the Canadian flag!
View attachment 78974

Haha, I wasn’t talking about nationalizing the pride flag, but rather the “Elmer the Safety Elephant” pennant. I love it!

I love the Canadian flag as well; it is one of those I find more appealing than the U.S. flag, having a very distinctive symbol in the “Maple Leaf”.

 

[YmirGF]

As a nonbinary person who is attracted to both men and women...

I can remember a lot of times i was treated poorly cuz I'm trans. Some recently.

I am curious about this. What exactly are you meaning by being treated poorly? I was "treated poorly" by a cashier at Rona the other day. I don't think I was her target at all, she was just having a bad day.

 

[VoidCat]

I am curious about this. What exactly are you meaning by being treated poorly? I was "treated poorly" by a cashier at Rona the other day. I don't think I was her target at all, she was just having a bad day.

I'll give you one example...i was verbally harassed on the phone by a friend of 6 years when I recently told her I was going to go on testosterone. To the point I had to hang up to cry. She said a lot of transphobic, homophobic, sexist, and ableist things in regards to me transitioning. She now no longer talks to me. We are no longer friends cuz im transitioning.