On Universalism

[Storm]

No worries. My specific question would be do you personally believe there is some way we can avoid the consequences of our actions through an act of divine forgiveness.

Not when you put it that way, no.

The distinction from your original statement being that not believing in a separate God capable of divine decree makes 'sin' a rather silly concept.

Getting back to this iteration, *I* don't believe God forbids or forgives anything. I believe God explores the concepts through us, and have faith that God will settle on moral behavior, thus creating a universal moral paradise. Please note the use of the word "faith" in that last part.

 

[nazz]

Not when you put it that way, no.

The distinction from your original statement being that not believing in a separate God capable of divine decree makes 'sin' a rather silly concept.

Getting back to this iteration, *I* don't believe God forbids or forgives anything. I believe God explores the concepts through us, and have faith that God will settle on moral behavior, thus creating a universal moral paradise. Please note the use of the word "faith" in that last part.

It's a question I've not really thought about before and now ask myself.

I've not believed in the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement for some time now and prefer the Christus Victor view. But I haven't carried that all the way through with whatever effects that has on the whole idea of divine forgiveness.

Lately I have had karma on the brain and it seems to me (right now anyway) it is inevitable, divine forgiveness or not.

Just thinking out loud.

 

[Storm]

It's a question I've not really thought about before and now ask myself.

I've not believed in the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement for some time now and prefer the Christus Victor view. But I haven't carried that all the way through with whatever effects that has on the whole idea of divine forgiveness.

Lately I have had karma on the brain and it seems to me (right now anyway) it is inevitable, divine forgiveness or not.

Just thinking out loud.

Please, continue.

 

[nazz]

Please, continue.

That's all I got for now.

I do believe in divine forgiveness. I'm just not sure how it fits into the karmic puzzle.

 

[godnotgod]

But why? Why did churches that preach fear over love win the day?

Part of the answer I think lies in the corruption of the allegory of the The Temptation and Fall.

I had heard what was labeled a more original version of the story on the radio one day many years ago in a broadcast by Alan Watts. That account went something like this:

As in the orthodox story, God warns his children not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, of the 'Forbidden Fruit'. He then 'goes away' out of sight. Here the story changes: God now reappears to Adam and Eve as a serpent, tempting them to ensure that they eat of the Fruit, the 'Forbidden Fruit' being a metaphor for Divine Union. IOW, God wants them to partake of Divine Union as His gift of Unconditional Love. Remember that the serpent told A&E that the reason God did not want them to eat of the Fruit was because it would cause their eyes to be opened so that they would then 'see as God sees'. But God had to use a device, a piece de resistance, as a means of tricking the human mind, sort of like a koan does, into 'disobedience', when no disobedience actually took place. Story end, and A&E live happily ever after in Divine Union. no Sin. No banishment. No debt. No Hell. No bloody sacrificial host.

But the priests in the temples could not collect tribute with such a story in place. So they twisted and corrupted the story to create such guilt, fear, shame, and a debt that could never be repaid, as a means of gaining total control of the human spirit. Only through the intercession of the priests and a few gold coins could one ensure a place in a heaven after death. But fear of hell had to be total and complete, or the gold coins might not flow into the priestly coffers so readily. So the priests played these two extremes against man to the hilt. We had to buy our way into heaven, or gain merit via good deeds, which in turn kept us docile, subservient, and continuing to put monies into the Church coffers.

 

[serp777]

So what's the point of this though? If gods love just runs deeper no matter what then we can just do whatever we want without consequences since his love is so great he'll just forgive us. It's a liscense to commit any crime you want and then just ask for God's forgiveness before you die.

Also what do we need saving from? I haven't done anything wrong by default and im generally a pretty good person so i don't need saving

 

[godnotgod]

So what's the point of this though? If gods love just runs deeper no matter what then we can just do whatever we want without consequences since his love is so great he'll just forgive us. It's a liscense to commit any crime you want and then just ask for God's forgiveness before you die.

Also what do we need saving from? I haven't done anything wrong by default and im generally a pretty good person so i don't need saving

No, we cannot 'just do whatever we want without consequences', even though the love of the divine nature IS great. But the negative consequences of our actions get in the way of the reception of divine grace. We may spend a lot of time having to pay up with suffering before we can enjoy the life that comes after forgiveness.

Sometimes we get in deeper than our abilities allow us to get out, and we need help. And sometimes we really think we're OK, but circumstances show us differently; we may get swept up in someone else's trouble and need help as well.

 

[sudakar]

It's a question I've not really thought about before and now ask myself.

I've not believed in the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement for some time now and prefer the Christus Victor view. But I haven't carried that all the way through with whatever effects that has on the whole idea of divine forgiveness.

Lately I have had karma on the brain and it seems to me (right now anyway) it is inevitable, divine forgiveness or not.

Just thinking out loud.

So you're back to believing in penal substitution?