On Universalism

[-Peacemaker-]

Don't you believe that God's love trumps justice? If not, in what way can God (or God's ability to save -- or even God's desire for us) be said to be omnipotent?

I believe God's love and justice are interwined and that it's through his need for justice that we see the ultimate expression of his love.

 

[sojourner]

I believe God's love and justice are interwined and that it's through his need for justice that we see the ultimate expression of his love.

What is that ultimate expression? How does it satisfy judgment?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

What is that ultimate expression? How does it satisfy judgment?

Orthodox Christians believe the death of Jesus satisfied his need for justice and that he took our place on the cross.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Storm, I meant it when I said that I want this conversation to go where you want it to go. Is there a particular aspect of universalism or of the reverend's message that you want to focus on?

 

[Quiddity]

Neither is really accurate, really.

The first implies there are some God doesn't wish to save. This completely contradicts Universalism in toto.

The second implies that everyone everywhere automatically goes to Heaven as soon as they die, with no effort on their part or God's, which... yeah. Pretty dumb, though I won't swear there's not someone out there who believes it. (And thinks it's Universalism.)

So, instead of focusing on everyone, why don't you tell me what you think of my last few posts? (I pick me because it's my thread, and I'm the one typing this post. Me, me, me, all about me. So there! )

Sure, any post in particular. Your convo with nazz is pages long.

 

[sojourner]

Orthodox Christians believe the death of Jesus satisfied his need for justice.

No they don't. Not all of them. That's called Substitutionary Atonement, which is not a universally-held orthodox belief.

 

[Storm]

I talked with Storm and I think she want to take the conversation in a different direction which is away from the doctrine of salvation. I will abide with that

Much appreciated!

I'm struggling to catch up at the moment, so it may be a bit before I post again.

 

[Storm]

From my own POV, we are creating, and paying for, karmic debt all the time and that doesn't change when a person gets "saved".

This is not incompatible with Universalism. May I ask why you think it is?

 

[Storm]

I believe God's love and justice are interwined and that it's through his need for justice that we see the ultimate expression of his love.

Kindly summarize your understanding of divine justice?

Storm, I meant it when I said that I want this conversation to go where you want it to go. Is there a particular aspect of universalism or of the reverend's message that you want to focus on?

I meant it when I said I appreciated it, too. I can be pretty aggressive in any debate, and you and I have never gotten along. I'd rather we learned to appreciate each other, however. It's much more interesting, to say nothing of productive.

To answer the question, there's no specific element I'd like to focus on. Feel free to ask for any elaboration or clarification you feel would be useful either to your own understanding or the goal of debate. Also, as to the sermon in the OP, quote anything you want to discuss.

 

[Storm]

Sure, any post in particular. Your convo with nazz is pages long.

Wow, was it really? Sorry, I didn't mean to ask you to deal with 20 points!

Anyway, pick whatever got your attention, or you and I can just start fresh.

 

[nazz]

Wow, was it really? Sorry, I didn't mean to ask you to deal with 20 points!

Anyway, pick whatever got your attention, or you and I can just start fresh.

Actually there seems to be a glitch in the tree. Our conversation is tied in with many others.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Kindly summarize your understanding of divine justice?

A big part of it for me is simply acknowledging a need for justice as opposed to just sweeping it under the rug which is my big problem with universalism. Even forgetting damnation for a second, I don't see how God's love can surpass a need for justice. Unbiased justice doesn't seem like something that can be overcome by love. Anger, if we're simply talking about an emotion can perhaps settle due to an overflowing of love, but not justice.

I meant it when I said I appreciated it, too. I can be pretty aggressive in any debate, and you and I have never gotten along. I'd rather we learned to appreciate each other, however. It's much more interesting, to say nothing of productive.

I know I'm abrasive but I'd rather we all get along even if we disagree. I also realize I need to be a nicer person on here. I'd apologize but what good does it do if there is no repentance

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

A big part of it for me is simply acknowledging a need for justice as opposed to just sweeping it under the rug which is my big problem with universalism. Even forgetting damnation for a second, I don't see how God's love can surpass a need for justice. Unbiased justice doesn't seem like something that can be overcome by love. Anger, if we're simply talking about an emotion can perhaps settle due to an overflowing of love, but not justice.



I know I'm abrasive but I'd rather we all get along even if we disagree. I also realize I need to be a nicer person on here. I'd apologize but what good does it do if there is no repentance

I think your Justice is somehow confused with revenge and envy and punishment.
Like being peeved about someone getting away with something you could not.
Or equating Justice with a tooth for a tooth.
Justice is not about punishment. Justice is about achieving a correct result.
God might punish before forgiveness, but I doubt it.
"The correct result" for salvation is a pure soul, not punishment.

 

[Iti oj]

To be honest a good who does anyless is not great nor worthy of worship.

If I were the become theistic or religious again universalism and humanism would be the key components of my faith. If i am capable of wanting it then surely god is capable of loving such a way.

Edit as to why its not more popular. People like in and out groups us vs them mentality. They like feeling superior. And fear and control

 

[Storm]

A big part of it for me is simply acknowledging a need for justice as opposed to just sweeping it under the rug which is my big problem with universalism. Even forgetting damnation for a second, I don't see how God's love can surpass a need for justice. Unbiased justice doesn't seem like something that can be overcome by love. Anger, if we're simply talking about an emotion can perhaps settle due to an overflowing of love, but not justice.

Oh, absolutely! I think this is a basic element of Universalism you fail to grasp, if you'll forgive my saying so.

I can explain how the two are commonly reconciled in Christian Universalism, if you like. Or I can wait until you proceed with definition now that we've established common ground. Your preference.

I know I'm abrasive but I'd rather we all get along even if we disagree. I also realize I need to be a nicer person on here. I'd apologize but what good does it do if there is no repentance

None at all. I vote we consider this an olive branch and let the rest be water under the bridge.

 

[sojourner]

I think your Justice is somehow confused with revenge and envy and punishment.
Like being peeved about someone getting away with something you could not.
Or equating Justice with a tooth for a tooth.
Justice is not about punishment. Justice is about achieving a correct result.
God might punish before forgiveness, but I doubt it.
"The correct result" for salvation is a pure soul, not punishment.

I agree. What could be more just than having all humanity saved?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Oh, absolutely! I think this is a basic element of Universalism you fail to grasp, if you'll forgive my saying so.

I can explain how the two are commonly reconciled in Christian Universalism, if you like. Or I can wait until you proceed with definition now that we've established common ground. Your preference.


None at all. I vote we consider this an olive branch and let the rest be water under the bridge.

My understanding of Christian universalism is it teaches that the blood of Jesus to covers everybody regardless of what they believe or what they do. Typically, such people reject the teachings of Paul among other things. That's a scriptural issue for me. The thesis of every argument I've read supporting the universalism mentioned in the OP is that "God's love is greater than his wrath/need for justice." It implies that God is too loving not to save us from damnation, but the implication is that damnation is an unjust and evil punishment. If there's something in that statement that I'm missing, then by all means share it.

 

[Storm]

My understanding of Christian universalism is it teaches that the blood of Jesus to covers everybody regardless of what they believe or what they do. Typically, such people reject the teachings of Paul among other things. That's a scriptural issue for me. The thesis of every argument I've read supporting universalism is that "God's love is greater than his wrath/need for justice." It implies that God is too loving not to save us from damnation, but the implication is that damnation is an unjust and evil punishment. If there's something in that statement that I'm missing, then by all means share it.

The idea that, after a few eons of torture (worst case scenario), God's need for justice is satisfied. Also, the understanding that if that's not true, then God can't accurately be described as just at all, let alone loving.

Universalism, Christian or otherwise does not necessarily posit that God abandons justice. Only that justice, if it is to have any claim to the word, cannot be unlimited retribution.

Does that make sense?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

The idea that, after a few eons of torture (worst case scenario), God's need for justice is satisfied. Also, the understanding that if that's not true, then God can't accurately be described as just at all, let alone loving.

Universalism, Christian or otherwise does not necessarily posit that God abandons justice. Only that justice, if it is to have any claim to the word, cannot be unlimited retribution.

Does that make sense?

Then what's the alternative to damnation as punishment? Karma? And how many universalists believe "eons of punishment" is a possibility?

 

[Storm]

Then what's the alternative to damnation as punishment? Karma? And how many universalists believe "eons of punishment" is a possibility?

Point of clarity: do you assume eternal damnation when you use the word?

I couldn't give you numbers. Universalism is simultaneously too broad a category and too insignificant a minority (or so it seems) to produce studies, really. And I don't care to take a shot in the dark.