On Universalism

[-Peacemaker-]

Translation: "I'm not happy until somebody gets sent to hell for believing differently than I do."

You make it sound like the beliefs we're talking about are superficial and inconsequencial. Not only that, but you seem to be more contemporary Jewish in your understanding of forgiveness than Christian. In a world where one is justified by simply following rules then it hardly matters who one worships. From the Christian pov, everybody from Abraham on down was forgiven by faith, not in some ambiguous entity but one that is very specific (Yahweh/Jesus).

 

[Storm]

How is this appealing to emotion? People here are proposing a world where not only to they get to define good and evil for themselves, but no one is actually held accountable for anything apart from whatever earthly authorities exist.

Uh huh. Brush up on the actual doctrine in question, please. You could start by, I dunno... reading the sermon linked in the op, or a few of the various arguments in the thread.

Alternatively, you could attempt to display some basic courtesy when requesting instruction in the face of your own ignorance. It's nothing to be ashamed of, after all. We're all ignorant of many, many topics.

 

[Storm]

You make it sound like the beliefs we're talking about are superficial and inconsequencial. Not only that, but you seem to be more contemporary Jewish in your understanding of forgiveness than Christian. In a world where one is justified by simply following rules then it hardly matters who one worships. From the Christian pov, everybody from Abraham on down was forgiven by faith, not in some ambiguous entity but one that is very specific (Yahweh/Jesus).

See the above post. If you cannot comply with either request, do not further pollute my thread.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

See the above post. If you cannot comply with either request, do not further pollute my thread.

I just read your reverend's argument. Guess what? It's the standard argument for universalism, that God's love is deeper than his wrath. I have no idea how you got it in your head that sharing this with us provides some new insight into the subject. People think that the idea of God's wrath is born out of some silly emotional need of his to vent. On the contrary, from the Christian pov, to ignore the debt created by our sins would be unjust.

 

[Storm]

I just read your reverend's argument. Guess what? It's the standard argument for universalism, that God's love is deeper than his wrath. I have no idea how you got it in your head that sharing this with us provides some new insight into the subject. People think that the idea of God's wrath is born out of some silly emotional need of his to vent. On the contrary, from the Christian pov, to ignore the debt created by our sins would be unjust.

Do you really think you just presented me with a single shred of new information? Sorry to disappoint.

I'm not even surprised that you characterize your preferred interpretation as "the Christian position," since previous posts made it quite clear that you are oblivious to the reality that Universalism is likewise a Christian position.

Again, educate yourself before opining, ask for assistance politely, or just run along and let the grown ups talk if you can't muster the maturity needed for the first two.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

editted version to sound more relevant to topic:

Let's get down to why people turn to universalism. I think it's a reation of many Westerners to the orthodox Christian doctrine of salvation. I actually think that Westerners can agree with much of that doctrine but that there is one sticking point that they can't get beyond. I think most people would agree that we are sinners. I think most people would agree that there should be a penalty when one commits a crime, they just don't agree with the punishment: damnation. I understand how one could look at it as drastic. I think most of us spend our entire lives being judged and judging ourselves by what man's standards are for being a "good person". It's someone that's generally a productive citizen, that apologizes when their wrong, and doesn't interfere with the happiness of others. Obviously, the standards of the Christian God are a little more stringent.

 

[Storm]

Let's get down to what I think is the fundamental objection that people have with the Orthodox Christian doctrine on salvation

No, let's not. This thread is about Universalism, and if you attempt to hijack it again, I will report you and request that ALL your posts thus far be deleted.

If you wish to discuss orthodox Christian theology, start your own thread. I'll be happy to participate. I'll even read your speculation on my motives and reasoning for daring to disagree with your doctrine of choice.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I just read your reverend's argument. Guess what? It's the standard argument for universalism, that God's love is deeper than his wrath. I have no idea how you got it in your head that sharing this with us provides some new insight into the subject. People think that the idea of God's wrath is born out of some silly emotional need of his to vent. On the contrary, from the Christian pov, to ignore the debt created by our sins would be unjust.

Which Christian pov are you talking about.
It seems to me that it is your Christian Pov you are talking about.
Not The Christian pov, which of course does not exist.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Do you really think you just presented me with a single shred of new information? Sorry to disappoint.

I'm not even surprised that you characterize your preferred interpretation as "the Christian position," since previous posts made it quite clear that you are oblivious to the reality that Universalism is likewise a Christian position.

Again, educate yourself before opining, ask for assistance politely, or just run along and let the grown ups talk if you can't muster the maturity needed for the first two.

It sounds like you're only interested in discussing this with like-minded people (people that agree with universalism). By the way, after awhile it gets to the point where we're all rehashing the same arguments. People have been discussing this stuff for millenia. For people who are actually informed on the subject, no of what's shared will be new information.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

No, let's not. This thread is about Universalism, and if you attempt to hijack it again, I will report you and request that ALL your posts thus far be deleted.

If you wish to discuss orthodox Christian theology, start your own thread. I'll be happy to participate. I'll even read your speculation on my motives and reasoning for daring to disagree with your doctrine of choice.

Do you really not see the connection between universalism and orthodox Christian doctrine on salvation. It's the same subject. People turn to universalism in part because they can't wrap their heads around that Christian doctrine. I could easily play a sematics game and change some of the words around so that it would appear more relevant.

 

[Storm]

It sounds like you're only interested in discussing this with like-minded people (people that agree with universalism). By the way, after awhile it gets to the point where we're all rehashing the same arguments. People have been discussing this stuff for millenia. For people who are actually informed on the subject, no of what's shared will be new information.

Not at all. I would be delighted if you actually educated yourself on this doctrine, wiht or without my assistance, and debated it intelligently.

However, lacking divine capacity for either hope or patience, I really don't think you will and therefore want you out of my thread.

 

[Storm]

Do you really not see the connection between universalism and orthodox Christian doctrine on salvation. It's the same subject. People turn to universalism in part because they can't wrap their heads around that Christian doctrine. I could easily play a sematics game and change some of the words around so that it would appear more relevant.

Of course I do. Now stop trolling.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Not at all. I would be delighted if you actually educated yourself on this doctrine, wiht or without my assistance, and debated it intelligently.

.

I'd be happy to. Do you have something beyond the good reverend's sermon? Do you feel there is a fundamental point in his sermon that I should've addressed that I missed? I addressed his thesis: "that God's love is deeper than his justice". What did you feel was so fundamental to his sermon that I missed? Perhap's the part about love coming from being loved? Christians absolutely believe that is true, they just don't believe that the concept is disconnected from justice. On the contrary, they believe that it is through God's need for justice that he provided us with the ultimate expression of his love

 

[Storm]

I'd be happy to. Do you have something beyond the good reverend's sermon? Do you feel there is a fundamental point in his sermon that I should've addressed that I missed? I addressed his thesis: "that God's love is deeper than his justice". What did you feel was so fundamental to his sermon that I missed? Perhap's the part about love coming from being loved? Christians absolutely believe that.

OK, thanks.

I will point out that the sermon, much as I loved it, was after all a Universalist addressing Universalists, and not a good starting point for educating oneself on the doctrine. I freely admit that I shouldn't have presented it as such, and can only plead the haste of euphoria. Sorry bout that.

So, before I address your questions, can we agree that I screwed up there and not get hung up on the celebration at the expense of the teaching?

Sounds fair to me, what say you?

 

[nazz]

For me, universalism=world without justice

I don't think that follows at all.

 

[sojourner]

You make it sound like the beliefs we're talking about are superficial and inconsequencial.

What beliefs are we talking about? These?

From the Christian pov, everybody from Abraham on down was forgiven by faith, not in some ambiguous entity but one that is very specific (Yahweh/Jesus).

If so, then you're correct. They are superficial and inconsequential. They only matter as specific paradigms for belief, not as beliefs in and of themselves.

 

[sojourner]

from the Christian pov, to ignore the debt created by our sins would be unjust.

From the Christian POV, the debt is certainly not only ignored, but eradicated, when one comes to the point of transformation. Which is exactly the point of universalism. Xy and universalism are synonymous.

 

[sojourner]

I'd be happy to. Do you have something beyond the good reverend's sermon? Do you feel there is a fundamental point in his sermon that I should've addressed that I missed? I addressed his thesis: "that God's love is deeper than his justice". What did you feel was so fundamental to his sermon that I missed? Perhap's the part about love coming from being loved? Christians absolutely believe that is true, they just don't believe that the concept is disconnected from justice. On the contrary, they believe that it is through God's need for justice that he provided us with the ultimate expression of his love

Don't you believe that God's love trumps justice? If not, in what way can God (or God's ability to save -- or even God's desire for us) be said to be omnipotent?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

From the Christian POV, the debt is certainly not only ignored, but eradicated, when one comes to the point of transformation. Which is exactly the point of universalism. Xy and universalism are synonymous.

I talked with Storm and I think she want to take the conversation in a different direction which is away from the doctrine of salvation. I will abide with that

 

[nazz]

From the Christian POV, the debt is certainly not only ignored, but eradicated, when one comes to the point of transformation. Which is exactly the point of universalism. Xy and universalism are synonymous.

From my own POV, we are creating, and paying for, karmic debt all the time and that doesn't change when a person gets "saved".