On Universalism

[Terrywoodenpic]

Without getting too far into my own complicated beliefs about God I just think that the existence of independent minds and wills is a brute fact to be acknowledged. Even if in an ultimate sense they are all part of God. Heck, even in a strictly Christian context, Christ, as part of the Trinity, prayed "not my will but thine be done". If there can be two wills within the Godhead then there can certainly be multiple wills outside of it.

From one proud weirdo to another

That is a reasonable set of thoughts....
Certainly in this life there are a multiplicity of minds and wills.
I have no Idea what God is like in any sense.
I doubt that there is more than one God creator... but there could be.
Christians seem to have come to regard him as a "Collective" being, and that might be a glimpse of a greater truth.
However I am sure it is sufficient to think of him as God whatever his true nature.
For a very long time I have believed our souls to be of God, to share words with the Trinity, of one substance with God.

I have no doubt that our souls return to God. I am far less certain that our wills and personalities do.
The Process of Salvation-repentance-forgiveness, is one of cleansing and purifying.
It might also be one of re-fusing.

There is always the possibility that there is no God . In which case there may be no after life either. What ever the case there seems to be a clear division between Right and wrong, how it is best to live our lives and how not to. That good and Evil are not just words.

Did God not exist, Jesus teachings would still be the best example to follow in our lives.

 

[nazz]

That is a reasonable set of thoughts....
Certainly in this life there are a multiplicity of minds and wills.
I have no Idea what God is like in any sense.
I doubt that there is more than one God creator... but there could be.
Christians seem to have come to regard him as a "Collective" being, and that might be a glimpse of a greater truth.
However I am sure it is sufficient to think of him as God whatever his true nature.
For a very long time I have believed our souls to be of God, to share words with the Trinity, of one substance with God.

I have no doubt that our souls return to God. I am far less certain that our wills and personalities do.
The Process of Salvation-repentance-forgiveness, is one of cleansing and purifying.
It might also be one of re-fusing.

There is always the possibility that there is no God . In which case there may be no after life either. What ever the case there seems to be a clear division between Right and wrong, how it is best to live our lives and how not to. That good and Evil are not just words.

Did God not exist, Jesus teachings would still be the best example to follow in our lives.

Great post. I like the way you think...

 

[Storm]

To sum up Universalism from the inside:

It's a reactionary position, really. It takes the assertion that God can or will give up on (aka damn) any of His/ Her/ its children and says "I think not."

Anyone disagree?

 

[nazz]

Whatever the details of your theology, we're ALL God's children. "God is love," say the Christians, but so many of them then turn around and say "but He hates YOU!"

How can this be?

maybe because the Bible contradicts itself?

 

[Storm]

maybe because the Bible contradicts itself?

Depending on one's overall interpretation, it can, sure. What's that got to do with calling out hypocrites on their attempt to put words in God's mouth?

 

[nazz]

Depending on one's overall interpretation, it can, sure. What's that got to do with calling out hypocrites on their attempt to put words in God's mouth?

The OT clearly states that God does hate.

 

[Storm]

The OT clearly states that God does hate.

Presuming precise translation AND total absence of any figurative language, yes.

ETA: Also, in support of my original objection, the NT quite clearly says not to be a judgmental prick about it, which is less fuzzy.

 

[nazz]

Presuming precise translation AND total absence of any figurative language, yes.

Granted. But then that would also apply to "God is love"



Got no dog in this fight (I don't believe God hates). Just playing devil's advocate.

 

[Storm]

Granted. But then that would also apply to "God is love"

Scriptural statements that "God is love," yes. Theological doctrines that God is lovING, not so much.

At any rate, the quote you pulled out wasn't arguing Scriptural interpretation, it was whining about hypocritical individuals who want God to be a sockpuppet justifying their own bigotry.

Got no dog in this fight (I don't believe God hates). Just playing devil's advocate.

Same here.

 

[nazz]

At any rate, the quote you pulled out wasn't arguing Scriptural interpretation, it was whining about hypocritical individuals who want God to be a sockpuppet justifying their own bigotry.

That's just it. Those people will pull out verses about God hating to justify their own hate. The bible has been used to justify so many awful things.

 

[Storm]

That's just it. Those people will pull out verses about God hating to justify their own hate. The bible has been used to justify so many awful things.

Uncontested. What's that got to do with the thread?

 

[nazz]

Uncontested. What's that got to do with the thread?

probably nothing. thread drift happens.

But I guess the connection could be that for those who believe God hates, and hates eternally, universalism would be rejected.

 

[Storm]

probably nothing. thread drift happens.

Oh, ok. I was confused by the old quote.

But I guess the connection could be that for those who believe God hates, and hates eternally, universalism would be rejected.

Well, yeah.

 

[sojourner]

To sum up Universalism from the inside:

It's a reactionary position, really. It takes the assertion that God can or will give up on (aka damn) any of His/ Her/ its children and says "I think not."

Anyone disagree?

Interesting position. I never thought of universalism as "reactionary," although, coming from my part of the country, I can certainly see how it could be! I always thought of it as proactive, making it less possible for exclusion to happen in the first place.

 

[Storm]

Interesting position. I never thought of universalism as "reactionary," although, coming from my part of the country, I can certainly see how it could be! I always thought of it as proactive, making it less possible for exclusion to happen in the first place.

I may have been less than technical with the term if one takes it historically.

I certainly don't claim encyclopedic and inerrant knowledge of the history of theology (and I'm not being snide ), but it seems to me that Universalism would have been pointless if not impossible to articulate until the doctrine of Hell was formed.

 

[sojourner]

I may have been less than technical with the term if one takes it historically.

I certainly don't claim encyclopedic and inerrant knowledge of the history of theology (and I'm not being snide ), but it seems to me that Universalism would have been pointless if not impossible to articulate until the doctrine of Hell was formed.

I guess I don't see that, but then I always saw universalism as more than about our disposition after death. For me, it's really more about a whole theological world view.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

For me, universalism=world without justice

 

[Storm]

I guess I don't see that, but then I always saw universalism as more than about our disposition after death. For me, it's really more about a whole theological world view.

Fair enough.

For me, universalism=world without justice

Yeah, that's totally shocking. Let me know when you have a response that isn't base appeal to emotion.

 

[sojourner]

For me, universalism=world without justice

Translation: "I'm not happy until somebody gets sent to hell for believing differently than I do."

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Fair enough.


Yeah, that's totally shocking. Let me know when you have a response that isn't base appeal to emotion.

How is this appealing to emotion? People here are proposing a world where not only to they get to define good and evil for themselves, but no one is actually held accountable for anything apart from whatever earthly authorities exist.