On Universalism

[oldbadger]

For heaven to be a place of peace, you will be placed alongside people of similar thought and feeling.

Hi........ Nope!

Heaven won't just be a place of peace...... Who told ya that?

The enlighted ones will be at peace, regardless of who they sit next to.
The spiritual arses will shriek and tortute themselves, regardless of who they sit next to.

Welcome to heaven...... !

 

[oldbadger]

It is always amusing when something that is patently obvious is regarded as being "great insight".

It's a pretty idea, but also one that is not very realistic. Pretending our differences away will not erode those differences.​

This strikes me as abject drivel........

My guess is that the reason why UU sentiments have not gained wide acceptance is because most can see through its namby-pamby, Kumbayah, sentimentality.

......... There's my goal...... When/if I get a seat in 'Heaven', I would like to be enlightened enough to be able to sit next to you........... and still feel that I am in a beautiful place.

Please excuse me.... I'm only being facetious...... but don't you get it? Your heaven or your hell is the same frigging place, and regardless of how smart or dumb we are, we get the place that we deserve. This is a suggestion, but you can think of it as a sort of commandment......! An eleventh commandment...... get ready, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

 

[sojourner]

Here we go, boys and girls. This sums it all up:

"The hell I won't talk that way! Peter, an eternity here without her is not an eternity of bliss; it is an eternity of boredom and loneliness and grief. You think this damned gaudy halo means anything to me when I know--yes, you've convinced me!--that my beloved is burning in the Pit? I didn't ask much. Just to be allowed to live with her. I was willing to wash dishes forever if only I could see her smile, hear her voice, touch her hand! She's been shipped on a technicality and you know it! Snobbish, bad-tempered angels get to live here without ever doing one lick to deserve it. But my Marga, who is a real angel if one ever lived, gets turned down and sent to Hell to everlasting torture on a childish twist in the rules. You can tell the Father and His sweet-talking Son and that sneaky Ghost that they can take their gaudy Holy City and shove it! If Margrethe has to be in Hell, that's where I want to be!" [Robert Heinlein, Alexander Hergensheimer in Job: A Comedy of Justice]

 

[Yab Yum]

Anyway, why do you think it's not more mainstream?

Because people like the idea of their precious little free will?

 

[nazz]

I see this is an old thread but it just reappeared in active topics so here are my two cents. I am a strong believer in free will so I don't think anyone is dragged into heaven kicking and screaming. That isn't love, IMO. However I also don't believe people are condemned to an eternity in hell against their will either.

 

[Storm]

Because people like the idea of their precious little free will?

How does the absence of damnation negate free will? It could make for an interesting debate, but I don't know how you got there.

I see this is an old thread but it just reappeared in active topics so here are my two cents. I am a strong believer in free will so I don't think anyone is dragged into heaven kicking and screaming. That isn't love, IMO. However I also don't believe people are condemned to an eternity in hell against their will either.

Well, colorful title aside,

1) See above.

2) What difference do you see between "no eternal Hell" and "eventual salvation for all?"

 

[nazz]

How does the absence of damnation negate free will? It could make for an interesting debate, but I don't know how you got there.


Well, colorful title aside,

1) See above.

2) What difference do you see between "no eternal Hell" and "eventual salvation for all?"

I believe in the law of karma (as I understand it anyway) which I think is expressed in the bible as the law of reaping and sowing. So negative realities (like hell) we create for ourselves. If we are not allowed to create those realities then we don't really have free will.

I believe what we call "heaven" is a place of perfection. Therefore it follows that only perfected beings could dwell there. I we are forced to be perfect then again there is no free will.

Hope this answers your questions.

 

[Storm]

I believe in the law of karma (as I understand it anyway) which I think is expressed in the bible as the law of reaping and sowing. So negative realities (like hell) we create for ourselves. If we are not allowed to create those realities then we don't really have free will.

I believe what we call "heaven" is a place of perfection. Therefore it follows that only perfected beings could dwell there. I we are forced to be perfect then again there is no free will.

Hope this answers your questions.

OK, but that doesn't answer my question. Univeralism in this context means that God continues to reach out to us until we reach that 'place of perfection.'

It's not based on force, but patience.

 

[nazz]

OK, but that doesn't answer my question. Univeralism in this context means that God continues to reach out to us until we reach that 'place of perfection.'

It's not based on force, but patience.

Yes, that is my understanding as well but that didn't seem to be what you quoted in the OP as stating. That person was saying they did not believe in free will but a sort of Calvinistic irresistible grace but applied to everyone? That was what I was responding to.

Also I think it may be possible to reach a place where one can no longer even hear the call of God.

 

[sojourner]

Yes, that is my understanding as well but that didn't seem to be what you quoted in the OP as stating. That person was saying they did not believe in free will but a sort of Calvinistic irresistible grace but applied to everyone? That was what I was responding to.

Also I think it may be possible to reach a place where one can no longer even hear the call of God.

First of all, Calvin was a dweeb.
Second, don't you think God's eternity and God's patience is stronger and longer than our self-disposition?

 

[Storm]

Yes, that is my understanding as well but that didn't seem to be what you quoted in the OP as stating.

Oh, sorry. Those were excerpts from the sermon. Did you read it?

My initial reaction to hearing it was "well, if you've got to be a theist, that's the way to do it." It wasn't til later that I got over the theism/ panentheism language barrier and it really hit me that.

I do try not to let terminology get in the way of truth, but we all slip up from time to time.

That person was saying they did not believe in free will but a sort of Calvinistic irresistible grace but applied to everyone? That was what I was responding to.

I won't speak to Reed's beliefs on free will. He was only a guest minister, and didn't address the topic in the month he graced us. Suffice to say that I didn't get that impression. I can see, though, how the quotes I selected would lead to it.

Also I think it may be possible to reach a place where one can no longer even hear the call of God.

But we're talking eternity, no? Unless you think it impossible to come back from that place, God can wait us out. And, imo, must.

 

[nazz]

Oh, sorry. Those were excerpts from the sermon. Did you read it?

The excerpts, yes.

I won't speak to Reed's beliefs on free will. He was only a guest minister, and didn't address the topic in the month he graced us. Suffice to say that I didn't get that impression. I can see, though, how the quotes I selected would lead to it.

OK

But we're talking eternity, no? Unless you think it impossible to come back from that place, God can wait us out. And, imo, must.

I don't think there is ever a time when we can't turn back to God. But there just may come a time when we have so shut off hearing from God that there does not remain any more hope.

 

[sojourner]

But there just may come a time when we have so shut off hearing from God that there does not remain any more hope.

Faith, hope, and love abide...

 

[nazz]

Faith, hope, and love abide...

Touche

But I would argue Paul was a Calvinist.

 

[nazz]

First of all, Calvin was a dweeb.
Second, don't you think God's eternity and God's patience is stronger and longer than our self-disposition?

Yes but not stronger than free will.

 

[sojourner]

Touche

But I would argue Paul was a Calvinist.

How could he be? Calvin lived 1500 years later than Paul.

 

[Storm]

The excerpts, yes.

I really recommend reading the whole thing. I mean to do so (again) when I get caught up. The link's in the op.

I don't think there is ever a time when we can't turn back to God. But there just may come a time when we have so shut off hearing from God that there does not remain any more hope.

I'll agree with that if you agree to my addendum, "in OUR hearts." The whole premise of Universailism is that God doesn't give up on us, regardless of whether we give up on God.

 

[sojourner]

Yes but not stronger than free will.

Oh, I think God can wait us out.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

can you imagine going before God and not repenting?
Salvation is offered universally.
But I can not imagine the circumstances for anyone to refuse...

 

[Storm]

can you imagine going before God and not repenting?
Salvation is offered universally.
But I can not imagine the circumstances for anyone to refuse...

Well, in truth, it would depend on what I was expected to repent OF.

Some ideas of divine ethos are, to me, quite ugly.