On Universalism

[GabrielWithoutWings]

I don't remember if I've ever posted this here. It's as good a time as any.

...With the Sign of the Cross, the old monk Abba Joseph trapped in his cell a dark and miserable demon who had come to tempt him. "Release me, Father, and let me go," pleaded the demon, "I will not come to tempt you again."

"I will gladly do that, but on one condition," replied the monk. "You must sing for me the song that you sang before God's Throne on high, before your fall."

The demon responded, "You know I cannot do that; it will cause me cruel torture and suffering. And besides, Father, no human ear can hear its ineffable sweetness and live, for you will surely die."

"Then you will have to remain here in my cell," said the monk, "and bear with me the full struggle of repentance."

"Let me go, do not force me to suffer," pleaded the demon.

"Ah, but then you must sing to me the song you sang on high before your fall with Satan."

So the dark and miserable demon, seeing that there was no way out, began to sing, haltingly, barely audible at first, groping for words long forgotten. As he sang, the darkness which penetrated and surrounded him began slowly to dissipate. The song grew ever louder and increasingly stronger, and soon the demon was caught up in its sweetness, his voice fully lifted up in worship and praise. Boldly he sang of the power and the honour and the glory of the Triune God on High, Creator of the Universe, Master of Heaven and Earth, of all things visible and invisible. As the song sung on high before all ages resounded in the fullness of its might, a wondrous and glorious light penetrated the venerable Abba's humble cell, and the walls which had enclosed it were no more.

Ineffable love and joy surged into the very depths of the being of the radiant and glorious angel, as he ever so gently stooped down and covered with his wings the lifeless body of the old hermit who had liberated him from the abyss of hell.

My favorite piece of heresy.

 

[lunamoth]

I don't remember if I've ever posted this here. It's as good a time as any.



My favorite piece of heresy.

Good story! I'll remember that one.

So Gabriel, what keeps you from singing?

 

[Erebus]

What do you think of the doctrine of Universalism?

It's certainly a pleasant concept and I much prefer it to Hellfire doctrines, but unfortunately I don't see it as being true (or at least not the way I view things myself ).
Firstly it presumes a benevolent force behind our existence. I would argue that "god" or whatever name you want to call it isn't totally benevolent or totally malevolent. At times it can be recognisable, but for the most part it's entirely alien to us.
Secondly it seems to set a moral standard through the notion that we can "sink low" yet still be redeemed. In my view we are no more good or evil than any other aspect of nature, we just "are". The actions of a serial killer may disgust us, while the actions of a charity worker might please us, yet both of them have their place in the universe without the need for divine love or redemption. Their actions are only noticeable on a societal level, not (in my opinion) a cosmological one.

I know this may look like I'm criticising, but I honestly do think Universalism is a much better concept than some of the others out there. It's just that I don't see a universal entity (god, creation, reality, chaos, nature etc) having any real concern over humanity. That falls to individual fragments of "God" not the whole.
Also, this is my opinion of course. I'm not trying to say what is and isn't correct

 

[Storm]

Well, it sounds like semantics but it technically isn't. At least, it isn't speaking from a purely Christian point of view. Christ came to die for humanity and no one is sent to Hell forever. That's Universalism. When those spirits who were in God's presence, turned their back on Him, somehow later repent of what they've done and get welcomed back into the Host, that's apocatastasis.

To those not of a Christian point of view (you and I), it sounds like one would naturally lead to the other.

Thanks for the new word.

 

[Storm]

It's certainly a pleasant concept and I much prefer it to Hellfire doctrines, but unfortunately I don't see it as being true (or at least not the way I view things myself ).
Firstly it presumes a benevolent force behind our existence. I would argue that "god" or whatever name you want to call it isn't totally benevolent or totally malevolent. At times it can be recognisable, but for the most part it's entirely alien to us.
Secondly it seems to set a moral standard through the notion that we can "sink low" yet still be redeemed. In my view we are no more good or evil than any other aspect of nature, we just "are". The actions of a serial killer may disgust us, while the actions of a charity worker might please us, yet both of them have their place in the universe without the need for divine love or redemption. Their actions are only noticeable on a societal level, not (in my opinion) a cosmological one.

I know this may look like I'm criticising, but I honestly do think Universalism is a much better concept than some of the others out there. It's just that I don't see a universal entity (god, creation, reality, chaos, nature etc) having an real concern over humanity. That falls to individual fragments of "God" not the whole.
Also, this is my opinion of course. I'm not trying to say what is and isn't correct

Yeah, the points you raised are precisely why it didn't click for me at first.

 

[waitasec]

i have a problem with a belief system that says:

your responsibility and culpability is not ultimately yours....

 

[Erebus]

Yeah, the points you raised are precisely why it didn't click for me at first.

Fair enough, I can't help but think we're essentially looking at opposite sides of the same coin here

 

[Storm]

Fair enough, I can't help but think we're essentially looking at opposite sides of the same coin here

Perhaps we are. For me, it was a matter of getting over the theistic language. "Salvation," etc. really threw me. But it was a great sermon and I kept thinking about it and eventually it just snapped into place.

 

[Storm]

i have a problem with a belief system that says:

your responsibility and culpability is not ultimately yours....

It doesn't say that, though. How it works varies, as mentioned upthread, but I've never mat anyone who believed it was a free pass.

 

[Erebus]

Perhaps we are. For me, it was a matter of getting over the theistic language. "Salvation," etc. really threw me. But it was a great sermon and I kept thinking about it and eventually it just snapped into place.

Cool

I'll be sure to send you postcards from the pit

 

[Storm]

Cool

I'll be sure to send you postcards from the pit

Honey, if there is one, I'm pretty sure you'll see me there.

 

[waitasec]

It doesn't say that, though. How it works varies, as mentioned upthread, but I've never mat anyone who believed it was a free pass.

i see, but what did you mean by:

no matter how low we sink, God's love runs deeper.

 

[Storm]

i see, but what did you mean by:

Didn't review the thread, did you?

Some Universalists believe in temporary damnation, or a sort of educational purgatory, or reincarnation. We don't just die and go to Heaven, we have to figure out where and why we screwed up. It's just that in the end, God doesn't give up on anyone.

 

[waitasec]

Didn't review the thread, did you?

not yet...just responded to the OP

Some Universalists believe in temporary damnation, or a sort of educational purgatory, or reincarnation. We don't just die and go to Heaven, we have to figure out where and why we screwed up. It's just that in the end, God doesn't give up on anyone.

i'll use dog crap as an analogy...
my point of view:
my dog craps on your lawn everyday...
you have no idea who is doing this.
i don't care if my dog craps on your lawn because i don't want the responsibility of picking it up, besides it's your lawn so you do it...

what would be your answer to that?

 

[Storm]

not yet...just responded to the OP


i'll use dog crap as an analogy...
my point of view:
my dog craps on your lawn everyday...
you have no idea who is doing this.
i don't care if my dog craps on your lawn because i don't want the responsibility of picking it up, besides it's your lawn so you do it...

what would be your answer to that?

Um..... what's the relevance?

 

[waitasec]

Um..... what's the relevance?

you said:

we have to figure out where and why we screwed up. It's just that in the end, God doesn't give up on anyone.

my offensiveness (dog crap) sets up a problem for you (how you deal with it, which also includes where and why you screwed up dealing with it; anger or retaliation) i on the other hand dealt with it... i don't care.

does that make more sense?

 

[Storm]

you said:


my offensiveness (dog crap) sets up a problem for you (how you deal with it, which also includes where and why you screwed up dealing with it; anger or retaliation) i on the other hand dealt with it... i don't care.

does that make more sense?

LOL, a bit. It's not a great illustration of the point, though. Too trivial. I'd just clean it up and grumble.

 

[nightwolf]

I believe we are all going to the same place. I find it hard to believe that whomever you are, you are going to the same place as I and will be rewarded no matter any bad/good you may do on this plane of existence.

I would simply say to these things, why? Why are we all rewarded no matter what we do? Why is it that any choice that I may make brings me to the same place as those who were "good people"? Why am I not accountable for my actions?

I do believe that we are all brothers and sisters. Not because religion teaches me so but because we all share a common ground and that is our humanity. I also believe that we could not all possibly believe in the exact same thing! This would take away the chance for you and I to be individual and would make forums, such as this pointless.

 

[waitasec]

LOL, a bit. It's not a great illustration of the point, though. Too trivial. I'd just clean it up and grumble.

honey...
if you had to do that everyday because of my irresponsibility, you'd do more than just grumble... especially after stepping in it several times...


my point is that we each have our own predisposition's...me, as the jerk, can be as happy as a fly on dog poop
you, the victim, are not so happy and are forced to deal with my refusal to take responsibility and culpability...even though you are minding your own business.

what i do think matters is the level of integrity and self respect we have for ourselves that end up policing our actions towards one another...even though that may not matter in the scheme of things.

i like those robert altman movies where you follow the domino effect from an objective point of view and see how intentions don't matter...

 

[sojourner]

I believe we are all going to the same place.

I'm going to Poughkeepsie.
Or else Albuquerque.
Or maybe Kookamunga.
Or maybe I'll wait until February and go to Punxsutawney...