On Universalism

[Storm]

Well I dont know. I sure dont plan to take on the role of miss America.
I am pretty content with who I am. I am even content with the world we live in.

Really? Wars, Imperialism (both political and cultural), the lack of social justice....

You don't think we can build something better?

Don't get me wrong, I love this world. But that doesn't mean we can't improve it.

 

[Caladan]

Really? Wars, Imperialism (both political and cultural), the lack of social justice....

You don't think we can build something better?

No. ever looked at an ant? it is the dominate life form on the planet. the perfect worker, the perfect soldier, and the perfect matriarchal society.
we will debate Islam and Christianity here perhaps half the evening discussing the achievements of other men. but as we all discuss, these creatures will still work and slave themselves to death in order to build better nests.

Don't get me wrong, I love this world. But that doesn't mean we can't improve it.

I suppose that recycling garbage. is a good thing.

 

[Storm]

I was referring to human culture. I don't see what ants have to do with it.

 

[Caladan]

I was referring to human culture. I don't see what ants have to do with it.

All human culture follows the same pattern. even democracy.
always men on the gaurd. international relations and the gears of the economy which have been turning non stop since we have entered the industrial age.
so.. who watches the watchmen?

 

[Storm]

All human culture follows the same pattern. even democracy.

You don't believe in progress?

 

[Caladan]

You don't believe in progress?

Progress into an industrial age. progress into the communication age. into the age of satellites. but at the end of the day, it will always be a grunt using his sore feet to stick that banner in the rocks and dust.

 

[Storm]

Progress into an industrial age. progress into the communication age. into the age of media. into the age of satellites. but at the end of the day, it will always be a grunt using his sore feet to stick that banner in the rocks and dust.

And I thought *I* was a pessimist!

 

[Caladan]

And I thought *I* was a pessimist!

It isnt pessimism. its realism. I know that there is still that reserves duty call on my desk. no matter how educated I became after 4 years in the university. no matter how liberal they tell you that our society has become in classes. most of the guys will look at each other and say 'so is this the Hamas convention we've landed on'?

 

[Storm]

It isnt pessimism. its realism. I know that there is still that reserves duty call on my desk. no matter how educated I became after 4 years in the university. no matter how liberal they tell you that our society has become in classes. most of the guys will look at each other and say 'so is this the Hamas convention we've landed on'?

To-may-to, to-mah-to.

 

[Acim]

"We're all going to die!"

> Well that's pessimistic.

No no no. I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist. Seriously, we're all gonna die.

 

[Caladan]

To-may-to, to-mah-to.

well ok then. so we agree!

 

[Storm]

well ok then. so we agree!

Well... I won't argue with you, anyway.

It raises the question, though... would your outlook be so bleak if you had some form of religious faith? Is that a topic you're interested in exploring? I don't want to derail this thread, but one of us could start a new one....

 

[Caladan]

Well... I won't argue with you, anyway.

It raises the question, though... would your outlook be so bleak if you had some form of religious faith?

I have religious faith. but your religion is heavy. either way. all religions discuss exactly what I am discussing here.
government and society.

 

[Storm]

I have religious faith. but your religion is heavy. either way. all religions discuss exactly what I am discussing here.
government, army, society.

You do? Are you no longer an atheist?

Anyway, would you be interested in a thread on faith and optimism?

ETA: And what do you mean by "heavy?"

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Elaborate, please.

Universalism is usually taken to be human-oriented. Apocatastasis is the reconciliation of all beings with intellect back to God. That includes all of the fallen angels and Satan. It doesn't make sense to me that something with free will could remain remote from God for an infinite amount of time. To do so would reduce God's omni-ness.

As for theodicy, Christ sending everyone to Heaven is great and all but the problem is that game. The game itself is rigged. Nature is cyclical and cruel. A common phrase is red in tooth and claw. If God is so good n' groovy as to let everyone into Heaven then creation shouldn't be as messed up as it is.

Then again, I have been reading a lot of Gnostic stuff lately, so that's probably influencing my initial feelings on the matter.

 

[Storm]

Universalism is usually taken to be human-oriented. Apocatastasis is the reconciliation of all beings with intellect back to God. That includes all of the fallen angels and Satan. It doesn't make sense to me that something with free will could remain remote from God for an infinite amount of time. To do so would reduce God's omni-ness.

As for theodicy, Christ sending everyone to Heaven is great and all but the problem is that game. The game itself is rigged. Nature is cyclical and cruel. A common phrase is red in tooth and claw. If God is so good n' groovy as to let everyone into Heaven then creation shouldn't be as messed up as it is.

Then again, I have been reading a lot of Gnostic stuff lately, so that's probably influencing my initial feelings on the matter.

None of that is a problem for my theology......

The first argument, I think is pure semantics. I've never known a Universalist who thought salvation excluded anyone(thing).

Theodicy, I see your point, but I think it's oversimplified. Universalism doesn't necessarily mean everyone gets into Heaven instantly. More commonly imx, there's a temporary damnation, or some sort of Purgatory, or reincarnation. We still have to do the work, it's just that God never gives up on us.

 

[Caladan]

You do? Are you no longer an atheist?

religious faith is a driving force behind human civilization, even if our social standing might be categorised as agnoticism.

Anyway, would you be interested in a thread on faith and optimism?

ETA: And what do you mean by "heavy?"

No! thanks. I believe in social realism as I state. it doesnt mean pessimism. it means that I feel that all people should experience a political system. they will find themselves very easily once they apply their critical abilities on world politics or domestic politics, and where they stand on this political stage.
religion ought to be grounded in basic desires or ideals. ask yourself, where do you stand first, deal with the basic political dilemmas first.
I am not ashamed to say, that my religious faith is idealy grounded in material needs. I am not seeking a salvation, salvation from what exactly?

 

[Storm]

I've read that post 3 times, and I haven't a clue what you're trying to say.

 

[Caladan]

I've read that post 3 times, and I haven't a clue what you're trying to say.

\
well maybe that's the problem.
because I feel exactly the same when people talk about spiritual salvations, etc.
when they discuss politics, any man can relate to what they say.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

None of that is a problem for my theology......

The first argument, I think is pure semantics. I've never known a Universalist who thought salvation excluded anyone(thing).

Well, it sounds like semantics but it technically isn't. At least, it isn't speaking from a purely Christian point of view. Christ came to die for humanity and no one is sent to Hell forever. That's Universalism. When those spirits who were in God's presence, turned their back on Him, somehow later repent of what they've done and get welcomed back into the Host, that's apocatastasis.

To those not of a Christian point of view (you and I), it sounds like one would naturally lead to the other.

Theodicy, I see your point, but I think it's oversimplified. Universalism doesn't necessarily mean everyone gets into Heaven instantly. More commonly imx, there's a temporary damnation, or some sort of Purgatory, or reincarnation. We still have to do the work, it's just that God never gives up on us.

Purgatory, I could understand. Reincarnation doesn't sit well with me for some reason.