On Universalism

[Storm]

What do you think of the doctrine of Universalism?

Stemming from Christianity, Universalism teaches universal salvation. In my own words, it's the belief that no matter how low we sink, God's love runs deeper.

The Reverend Dr. Mark Morrison-Reed delivered a powerful sermon on the topic at my church: Dragged Kicking & Screaming Into Heaven (12/6/09) You can find the .pdf as well as a link to the podcast here. A couple of excerpts:

The great insight of Universalism is that you cannot coerce people into loving oneanother. The commandments are not threats. If they are not fulfilled God will notwithdraw His love. No one has ever or will ever draw true love out of another with punishment. God’s love is given to all and is a more a positive force for good than fear ever will be. Behind this is a simple truth: in being loved we learn to love. Those who are loved will in turn love others. Those who feel God’s infinite love within themselves will in turn feel so good about themselves, so connected to life and so full of compassion that they will not be able to help but to spread that love for they will overflow with it.

...

The “Gospel of the Larger Hope” is a gospel of inclusion that proclaims God’s enduring and undaunted love. What has always puzzled me is why it didn’t sweep the world? Why after the boom in the first half of the 19th century did it collapsed? Why is it the afterthought in Unitarian Universalism? Why is Universalism and its proclamation of unconditional and uncompromising, all-embracing and over-powering Divine Love more
difficult to believe in than the Resurrection and the Virgin Birth? Why is it easier to believe the unbelievable than to believe we are one human family beloved by God?

...

The world needs to hear about this faith that soothes wounded hearts and shapes attitudes that embody the Spirit of Love rather than that of wrath. In the face of neo-tribalism we need a message that challenges the “axis of evil” rhetoric, contradicts the ‘us’ versus ‘them’ mentality and proclaims the oneness of the human family. There is only ‘us’ beloved by a God who, dismissing free will (You heard me correctly. You do not get to decide), and embracing the saintly and despicable alike; created both Mother Teresa and Saddam Hussein, understands Major Nidal Malik Hasan and grieves for his victims, supported both McCain and Obama, loves both Bush and Ben Laden, and drags Hitler into heaven, as well.​

So, what do you make of it?

 

[imaginaryme]

Thanks for 'splaining. I was thinking "UU" was an emote for "closed eyelids, blushing - kinda looking inwards thingy" - dang artists - symbols everywhere...

But this is more of the kind of thing "makes me wig over Gwynnie," cause all that makes perfect sense to me - but as now, I am a function of "I love" rather than "I love Gwynnie," a further symmetry arises. "God" is a problem as such implies direction, and a conception that already exists - and is just plain distasteful to many by past association. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if "the bust" you mentioned was from a similar resultant - that the philosophy of "pure love" works well enough without extraneous variables...

Yeah, mathematical theologist... that's for sure.

 

[Amill]

I love those kinds of beliefs. I used to hold those kind of ideas before I slowly transitioned to deism and atheism. That's the kind of god I'd want to hear from and that's the concept I've held for a god IF it were to exist. It makes me happy to know that there are quite a few people that hold those beliefs, it gives me hope for humanity.

 

[Storm]

I love those kinds of beliefs. I used to hold those kind of ideas before I slowly transitioned to deism and atheism. That's the kind of god I'd want to hear from and that's the concept I've held for a god IF it were to exist. It makes me happy to know that there are quite a few people that hold those beliefs, it gives me hope for humanity.

Aw, thank you!

Anyway, why do you think it's not more mainstream?

 

[imaginaryme]

I love those kinds of beliefs. I used to hold those kind of ideas before I slowly transitioned to deism and atheism. That's the kind of god I'd want to hear from and that's the concept I've held for a god IF it were to exist. It makes me happy to know that there are quite a few people that hold those beliefs, it gives me hope for humanity.

Whaddya mean IF?!?! Grr... mumble, mumble... atheists... mumble... arm-chair quarterbacks always talking when it's time for action... mumble... anarchy, baby! Burn stuff... burn! (cough, cough) old man nodding off in the chair, where was I? Oh, yeah...

I used to know of people that did not even believe that love exists. People nowadays spend five minutes with me, and know that I love. Something definitely exists... god or Gwynnie or Ol' Noodly... there is more than just hope, is all I'm saying.

 

[EverChanging]

I suppose I may be a "universalist" in some sense of the term, but not traditionally. I tend to think of universalism in terms of our seventh principle: Respect for the interdependent web of all life, of which we are a part.

I am slowly beginning to develop my own religious language or "language of reverence" as I pray and meditate, and one of those words is rhythm, which I use to express the oneness of all existence. We are all one, whether we are know it or not. We are all in rhythm. The elements our bodies are composed of are the same as the rest of the universe, existed as long as everything else, and always will. This is true of everyone, Hitler as well as the most saintly people. And while not everyone knows they are in rhythm, that they are "saved" so to speak, in death the ego vanishes, the sense of being separate, and we become one with all -- like we always were. To die is to be in eternal bliss, for there is no suffering, or pain, or anything -- only being. This is true of all of us, every living creature, even the most despicable. In this sense, all is well, all are saved, all are one, all are in rhythm, and whatever troubles we have now are merely a blink in the history of the universe.

Free will plays no role in my theology. As a part of nature, I am a point of the forces of the universe coming together to create and sustain my being, and my behavior is the result of those forces: genetic and environmental interactions, the product of a brain that has evolved over billions of years according to natural laws, a brain which is also subject to the laws of physics, chemistry, and electricity. When we realize this oneness, it is best to simply surrender to this flow of being...the moment of now. This is rhythm. We are all in rhythm.

This is quite different from traditional universalism, but I think there is some continuity in my thinking -- it was certainly inspired by universalism and the seventh principle, among other sources.

As for why fire and brimstone won out over universalism in Christianity, I suppose this is because the churches that gained political power in the history of Christianity needed a hell to control and scare people. Also, many people seem to be very turned off by the idea that someone like Hitler will not face punishment. Some universalists believe in a kind of purgatory, so to speak, but many people seem to think Hitler deserves eternal punishment. I don't think anyone does, but that's just me....

In any case, I think universalism is beautiful and I gravitate more toward that side of UU'ism than Unitarianism. I think it grasps the covenant most clearly, that we are all one with each other, that we are already "saved," just as we are, right here, right now, in this world.

 

[Thief]

I refrain.

The human form generates individuals.
The linear lives we live, form who we are.

As we crossover into the next life, some kind of judgment must take place.
For heaven to be a place of peace, you will be placed along side people of similar thought and feeling.

Do unto others as you would have it done unto you.

A code of behavior in this world....and fair warning.

It will be done unto you as you did unto others.
Your fate is in your hands.

There will be swords drawn....
The angels await your arrival.

 

[Storm]

It occurs to me I never gave my own opinion. As I said in another thread:

So much of our religious heritage is judgment. This is sacred, this is profane. Pantheism (like Universalism) sanctifies all. There is no sin, no damnation. No elite, no Chosen. All are equal, all are worthy.

The profound relief and rightness of this moves me to tears if I dwell on it. Freedom and grace in the truest sense of the word. Love and beauty. It's beyond my ability to articulate.

It's not without its pitfalls, and I have been known to struggle with it. But it is quite beautiful, not to mention radical, and every instinct I have thrills with confirmation.
​

I truly, completely believe there's no depth to which we can sink that God's love doesn't run deeper.

And that's as it should be! Whatever the details of your theology, we're ALL God's children. "God is love," say the Christians, but so many of them then turn around and say "but He hates YOU!"

How can this be?

 

[Storm]

I suppose I may be a "universalist" in some sense of the term, but not traditionally. I tend to think of universalism in terms of our seventh principle: Respect for the interdependent web of all life, of which we are a part.

I am slowly beginning to develop my own religious language or "language of reverence" as I pray and meditate, and one of those words is rhythm, which I use to express the oneness of all existence. We are all one, whether we are know it or not. We are all in rhythm. The elements our bodies are composed of are the same as the rest of the universe, existed as long as everything else, and always will. This is true of everyone, Hitler as well as the most saintly people. And while not everyone knows they are in rhythm, that they are "saved" so to speak, in death the ego vanishes, the sense of being separate, and we become one with all -- like we always were. To die is to be in eternal bliss, for there is no suffering, or pain, or anything -- only being. This is true of all of us, every living creature, even the most despicable. In this sense, all is well, all are saved, all are one, all are in rhythm, and whatever troubles we have now are merely a blink in the history of the universe.

Free will plays no role in my theology. As a part of nature, I am a point of the forces of the universe coming together to create and sustain my being, and my behavior is the result of those forces: genetic and environmental interactions, the product of a brain that has evolved over billions of years according to natural laws, a brain which is also subject to the laws of physics, chemistry, and electricity. When we realize this oneness, it is best to simply surrender to this flow of being...the moment of now. This is rhythm. We are all in rhythm.

This is quite different from traditional universalism, but I think there is some continuity in my thinking -- it was certainly inspired by universalism and the seventh principle, among other sources.

Beautifully put. Thank you.

As for why fire and brimstone won out over universalism in Christianity, I suppose this is because the churches that gained political power in the history of Christianity needed a hell to control and scare people.

But why? Why did churches that preach fear over love win the day?

Also, many people seem to be very turned off by the idea that someone like Hitler will not face punishment. Some universalists believe in a kind of purgatory, so to speak, but many people seem to think Hitler deserves eternal punishment. I don't think anyone does, but that's just me....

OK, I can see this.

Eternal damnation does soothe the kneejerk desire for revenge, and many people confuse revenge with justice. It doesn't stand up to scrutiny, in my book, but far too many are content with unquestioning belief.

In any case, I think universalism is beautiful and I gravitate more toward that side of UU'ism than Unitarianism. I think it grasps the covenant most clearly, that we are all one with each other, that we are already "saved," just as we are, right here, right now, in this world.

:candle:

 

[YmirGF]

What do you think of the doctrine of Universalism?

Frankly, Storm, not a lot.

Stemming from Christianity, Universalism teaches universal salvation. In my own words, it's the belief that no matter how low we sink, God's love runs deeper.

Then reject the very idea of the need for salvation. You're already halfway there, make the leap.

The great insight of Universalism is that you cannot coerce people into loving one another.

It is always amusing when something that is patently obvious is regarded as being "great insight".

The commandments are not threats.

If they are not implying the threat of judgment, then why, perchance, were they ever called commandments? Why were they not called "The 10 Helpful Suggestions".

If they are not fulfilled God will not withdraw His love. No one has ever or will ever draw true love out of another with punishment.

So, the Judgment doctrine is simply false. OK. Good enough.

God’s love is given to all and is a more a positive force for good than fear ever will be. Behind this is a simple truth: in being loved we learn to love. Those who are loved will in turn love others. Those who feel God’s infinite love within themselves will in turn feel so good about themselves, so connected to life and so full of compassion that they will not be able to help but to spread that love for they will overflow with it.

So, are you saying that UU's are full of it? Or are they perhaps, just full of themselves? My guess is this is just another placebo to instill a sense of self-righteousness in the individual that is not apparent in the world they find themselves in.

The “Gospel of the Larger Hope” is a gospel of inclusion that proclaims God’s enduring and undaunted love. What has always puzzled me is why it didn’t sweep the world?

It is likely because people perceive lipstick being applied to the face of the proverbial piggy.

Why after the boom in the first half of the 19th century did it collapse? Why is it the afterthought in Unitarian Universalism? Why is Universalism and its proclamation of unconditional and uncompromising, all-embracing and over-powering Divine Love more difficult to believe in than the Resurrection and the Virgin Birth? Why is it easier to believe the unbelievable than to believe we are one human family beloved by God?

Probably because you are just another group that pretends to have answers that no one else has or know the religions of others better than the adherents of those religions do. By declaring that all religions are special you succeed in confirming that none of them are special or exclusive and sadly you tar yourself, by default, with the same brush.

The world needs to hear about this faith that soothes wounded hearts and shapes attitudes that embody the Spirit of Love rather than that of wrath.

I disagree, I think we have heard enough from those who think they know better than the rest of us.

In the face of neo-tribalism we need a message that challenges the “axis of evil” rhetoric, contradicts the ‘us’ versus ‘them’ mentality and proclaims the oneness of the human family.

It's a pretty idea, but also one that is not very realistic. Pretending our differences away will not erode those differences.

There is only ‘us’ beloved by a God who, dismissing free will (You heard me correctly. You do not get to decide), and embracing the saintly and despicable alike; created both Mother Teresa and Saddam Hussein, understands Major Nidal Malik Hasan and grieves for his victims, supported both McCain and Obama, loves both Bush and Ben Laden, and drags Hitler into heaven, as well.

So, what do you make of it?

This strikes me as abject drivel emanating from the mind of one who has succumbed to the pablum of intellectual dishonesty. Simply referring to Mother Teresa, in somewhat saintly tones, is enough to earn a big red F for his paper.

My guess is that the reason why UU sentiments have not gained wide acceptance is because most can see through its namby-pamby, Kumbayah, sentimentality.

 

[Storm]

My guess is that the reason why UU sentiments have not gained wide acceptance is because most can see through its namby-pamby, Kumbayah, sentimentality.

What an insightful, constructive criticism.

 

[YmirGF]

What an insightful, constructive criticism.

I keep forgetting, I am supposed to be supportive of unimaginative drivel. Forgive me.

 

[Walkntune]

The great insight of Universalism is that you cannot coerce people into loving oneanother. The commandments are not threats. If they are not fulfilled God will notwithdraw His love. No one has ever or will ever draw true love out of another with punishment. God’s love is given to all and is a more a positive force for good than fear ever will be. Behind this is a simple truth: in being loved we learn to love. Those who are loved will in turn love others. Those who feel God’s infinite love within themselves will in turn feel so good about themselves, so connected to life and so full of compassion that they will not be able to help but to spread that love for they will overflow with it.

God does love you with an agape love. There is a law of reaping what you sow in existence.
Those who want others to love them and go around trying to get love from others will find themselves lonely and always searching for love.They are always trying to take and not give and become very draining to be around.
Those who choose to love everyone else will find that people enjoy being around them because they make you feel good and will always find people wanting to be around them and not be lonely.
Jesus said it's better to give than to receive and this reaping works in all aspects of your life.

 

[Storm]

I keep forgetting, I am supposed to be supportive of unimaginative drivel. Forgive me.

No, but you're supposed to have some concept of the difference between criticism and bashing. Or, at least, if that's too much for you, brevity. I didn't waste much time on your smug condescension, but I still want it back.

ETA: Although, I suppose I should thank you for demonstrating so pointedly why Universalism would benefit the world.

 

[berrychrisc]

many people seem to be very turned off by the idea that someone like Hitler will not face punishment. Some universalists believe in a kind of purgatory, so to speak, but many people seem to think Hitler deserves eternal punishment. I don't think anyone does, but that's just me....

I agree. No one deserves eternal punishment. God is love and the only thing that separates us from God is ourselves. He is already with each one of us, in that divine spark that emanated from Him when we came into existence, and will one day return to Him. As Jesus taught, the kingdom of heaven is within us.

 

[Storm]

bump.

 

[sojourner]

AS I see it, universalism doesn't stress the need for salvation. It stresses the efficacy of salvation. It calls for a redefinition of salvation. I am a proponent of universalism, so long as salvation is already effective for all.

 

[Storm]

AS I see it, universalism doesn't stress the need for salvation. It stresses the efficacy of salvation. It calls for a redefinition of salvation. I am a proponent of universalism, so long as salvation is already effective for all.

Could you elaborate?

 

[sojourner]

Could you elaborate?

Universalism accepts that God will save every human being, and that God provides paths for people to follow that will lead them to a place of salvation (whatever that means -- I prefer to think of it as "union with God"). The "need for salvation-based" religions mostly hold that their belief -- their concept of God -- their tenets -- their rituals are what save people, ergo, universalism is wrong. If universalism holds that salvation is already efficacious -- that is, that God is already about the business of drawing people to God, then any number of paths can be "correct" -- it simply becomes a matter of finding the one that's right for you. In other words, if universalism says that "everyone's OK in God's eyes -- and God's love overrides your propensity to sin -- then I'm aboard. I think that Xy is, at its heart, a universal religion.

 

[atanu]

What do you think of the doctrine of Universalism?

The world needs to hear about this faith that soothes wounded hearts and shapes attitudes that embody the Spirit of Love rather than that of wrath. -----So, what do you make of it?

The following is pertinent, in my opinion.

Question: I am full of hate. Will you please teach me how to love?

K: No one can teach you how to love. If people could be taught how to love, the world problem would be very simple, would it not? If we could learn how to love from a book as we learn mathematics, this would be a marvelous world; there would be no hate, no exploitation, no wars, no division of rich and poor, and we would all be really friendly with each other. But love is not so easily come by. It is easy to hate, and hate brings people together after a fashion; it creates all kinds of fantasies, it brings about various types of co-operation, as in war. But love is much more difficult. You cannot learn how to love, but what you can do is to observe hate and put it gently aside. Don't battle against hate, don't say how terrible it is to hate people, but see hate for what it is and let it drop away; brush it aside, it is not important. What is important is not to let hate take root in your mind. Do you understand? Your mind is like rich soil, and if given sufficient time any problem that comes along takes root like a weed, and then you have the trouble of pulling it out; but if you do not give the problem sufficient time to take root, then it has no place to grow and it will wither away. If you encourage hate, give it time to take root, to grow, to mature, it becomes an enormous problem. But if each time hate arises you let it go by, then you will find that your mind becomes very sensitive without being sentimental; therefore it will know love.

The mind can pursue sensations, desires, but it cannot pursue love. Love must come to the mind. And, when once love is there, it has no division as sensuous and divine: it is love. That is the extraordinary thing about love: it is the only quality that brings a total comprehension of the whole of existence.
Think on these things, Jiddu Krishnamurti 1964, pp 62-63