ONCE AGAIN! Facts in the Bible is supported by archaeology.

[ImmortalFlame]

True. I am not arguing for any one person's POV. I am arguing that people in general
see Einstein like figures as belief role models. It goes like this, "If so-and-so is the
most intelligent person on earth, and he or she doesn't believe in God, who am I to
believe in God?"
That's why Einstein's "God letter" was so newsworthy last month.

Ahh, I think I see your point in that case.

 

[Audie]

I have found some that tried to be honest for at least a short period of time. Sadly when it was obvious to even themselves that they were wrong cognitive dissonance struck and the fan away.

"They ran:

 

[Subduction Zone]

"They ran:

I know, my tablet has an amazing feature called "Autowrong".

 

[Kenny]

Ok... let's go through these

Look, KenS.

There are areas where we can verify what the Bible say to be historical, but they are a lot fewer than what Christians believe to be true.

For instance, PruePhillip keep bringing up Pontius Pilate to be governor of Judaea.

I agreed that he exist. I also agreed that Jesus existed.

Pilate existed historically, because he found mentioned in the few independent literary sources (texts) from independent historians.

When I say “independent”, I mean independent from the narratives of the gospels.

I think you missed a great point... let me give you an analogy...

An accident has just happened:

1. there were 12 eye-witnesses who wrote there account
2. Independently - A car junk location received two destroyed cars
3. Independently - A piece of paper says there was an accident on the same day that the two cars were received.

But we are going to throw out and not take into consideration the 12 eye-witnesses and only take in the two independent supportive documentation?

I don't think so.

The independent documentation only supports the 12 eyewitnesses but the eyewitnesses are the most important. Thus we accept the gospels--because of their proximity to what happened

These historians are Josephus in The Jewish Wars (75 CE) and in Antiquities of the Jews (94 CE), Philo of Alexandria in Legatio ad Gaium (Embassy to Gaius), and Tacitus in Annals.

While each of them confirmed that Pilate was governor of Judaea (Tacitus wrongly as “procurator”), at the time of emperor Tiberius and othat of Jesus, none of them mention anything about Pilate being involved in Jesus’ trial and execution that are found in the gospel narratives.

Tacitus say that Pilate was oppressing Christians, but no mention of Jesus being connected to these Christians.

I'm not sure Tacitus was necessarily wrong calling him a procurator in as much as there are different definitions as time goes by. A procurator does have administrative powers. But inconsequential at this point.

I think you missed a great point in as much as "Christians" is already a direct reference to The Christ or Christ-like ones. Just that fact that they are mentioning Christians is evidence enough, IMO.

Not to mention the quote from his Annals - Book 15

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin," The bold is Christ.

The only time Jesus is mentioned by name, in Josephus’ AotJ, is when Josephus talk about James as a Christian leader, with “James, brother of Jesus”. There are not much to go by, because it concern nothing about Jesus’ life, nothing about his teachings and miracles, nothing about his execution and miraculous resurrection. So I agreed with Subduction Zone that’s not strong evidences that confirmed what the gospels say about Jesus; very weak and tenuous evidence for Jesus, not very useful.

So, in reality, the position of Subduction is quite weak.

All the historical records and archaeological evidences we have, only points to Pilate being governor at that time, but none of them connect Pilate to Jesus. It only prove Pilate being a real Roman prefect, not Pilate being around in Jesus’ sentencing and execution, as the gospels claimed.

My point is that proving Pilate’s existence as a prefect, doesn’t prove much about anything regarding to Jesus in the gospels.

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.

- Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63
(Based on the translation of Louis H. Feldman, The Loeb Classical Library.)

 

[Twilight Hue]

Did Josephus Refer to Jesus

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

But we are going to throw out and not take into consideration the 12 eye-witnesses and only take in the two independent supportive documentation?

To make this more like the bible, though, the 12 witnesses needed to have been at home and not at the crash location and still claimed to be witnesses. They claim to know what the drivers did before they got in the cars, what they were thinking internally, what their destinations were, what was playing on the radios, etc.

In the bible, "witnesses" are not even there for most of the stories presented, making them outright liars. How many of those authors witnessed Jesus' conception or birth? How many witnessed things where he was alone? How many witnessed his torture and death and resurrection when they had all run off?

If I were the cop investigating, I'd threaten to jail them for obstruction for wasting my time.

because of their proximity to what happened

But they weren't THERE for many of those stories!

I think you missed a great point in as much as "Christians" is already a direct reference to The Christ or Christ-like ones. Just that fact that they are mentioning Christians is evidence enough, IMO.

So, I go read Homer, find out that several locations are legit and that they believed in certain gods, so that makes those gods real?

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin," The bold is Christ.

There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.

Jedi are real because I can prove these are their beliefs.

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.

About this time there was a boy born of the Force, if one could assume that from a desperate single mother, for he could perform amazing races and survive and grew to become a great teacher to one of the greatest characters the galaxy has ever known. He won the loyalty of the entire 501st and was the Chosen One. And when, upon unfair accusations among the Jedi Council, the Emperor baited the Chosen One into killing his wife, the Chosen One was reborn more machine than man, yet even the Force Gods acknowledged him as the one who would bring balance to the Force. And the Knights of Ren, led by his grandchild, to this day has not disappeared, even though we're not sure 'cause I don't think they were in the last movie....

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ok... let's go through these


I think you missed a great point... let me give you an analogy...

An accident has just happened:

1. there were 12 eye-witnesses who wrote there account
2. Independently - A car junk location received two destroyed cars
3. Independently - A piece of paper says there was an accident on the same day that the two cars were received.

But we are going to throw out and not take into consideration the 12 eye-witnesses and only take in the two independent supportive documentation?

I don't think so.

The independent documentation only supports the 12 eyewitnesses but the eyewitnesses are the most important. Thus we accept the gospels--because of their proximity to what happened



I'm not sure Tacitus was necessarily wrong calling him a procurator in as much as there are different definitions as time goes by. A procurator does have administrative powers. But inconsequential at this point.

I think you missed a great point in as much as "Christians" is already a direct reference to The Christ or Christ-like ones. Just that fact that they are mentioning Christians is evidence enough, IMO.

Not to mention the quote from his Annals - Book 15

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin," The bold is Christ.


So, in reality, the position of Subduction is quite weak.



About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.

- Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63
(Based on the translation of Louis H. Feldman, The Loeb Classical Library.)

The problem is that you do not have eyewitnesses. The earliest gospel is over a generation after the time of Jesus.

The Tacitus quote is one where he was barely mentioned. There is a similar quote from Josephus that is thought to be genuine, but the one that you quoted is not thought to be so:

Josephus on Jesus - Wikipedia

 

[Kenny]

The problem is that you do not have eyewitnesses. The earliest gospel is over a generation after the time of Jesus.

The Tacitus quote is one where he was barely mentioned. There is a similar quote from Josephus that is thought to be genuine, but the one that you quoted is not thought to be so:

Josephus on Jesus - Wikipedia

The problem is you have a dating problem. And one of them is as clear as black and white

 

[gnostic]

I'm not sure Tacitus was necessarily wrong calling him a procurator in as much as there are different definitions as time goes by. A procurator does have administrative powers. But inconsequential at this point.

No, KenS.

Tacitus got it wrong.

From around Caligula’s time and onward, Judaea has was indeed governed by procurator, but during Augustus and Tiberius’ times, had prefects.

Since Tacitus was writing the late 1st and early 2nd century CE, it is obvious that overlooked that Pilate was actually a prefect.

Prefects were originally commanders of allies (during the republican day’s) and auxiliary forces (late republican and early imperial periods), in various capacities (eg infantry units, archers, cavalry, etc).

So with a province that’s new with potential for unrest or facing full scale rebellion or war, then it required military presence that can garrison their forces in cities or towns, and to patrol the regions and borders.

Caligula was a fool and madman, not known for his foreign policies and diplomacy, handled Judaea badly, and almost caused a war. It was he changed Judaea provincial status, and procurator became governor.

It did ended in war in Nero’s reign, because Nero was just as insane and inadept in foreign administration as Caligula. Procurator was suspended as legates of Syria (the future emperor Vespasian, and then Titus) took charge to fight war in Judaea.

You need to pay attention to Roman and Judaea histories at that time, and part of it, is understanding the politics and policies of that time.

 

[Kenny]

No, KenS.

Tacitus got it wrong.

From around Caligula’s time and onward, Judaea has was indeed governed by procurator, but during Augustus and Tiberius’ times, had prefects.

Since Tacitus was writing the late 1st and early 2nd century CE, it is obvious that overlooked that Pilate was actually a prefect.

Prefects were originally commanders of allies (during the republican day’s) and auxiliary forces (late republican and early imperial periods), in various capacities (eg infantry units, archers, cavalry, etc).

So with a province that’s new with potential for unrest or facing full scale rebellion or war, then it required military presence that can garrison their forces in cities or towns, and to patrol the regions and borders.

Caligula was a fool and madman, not known for his foreign policies and diplomacy, handled Judaea badly, and almost caused a war. It was he changed Judaea provincial status, and procurator became governor.

It did ended in war in Nero’s reign, because Nero was just as insane and inadept in foreign administration as Caligula. Procurator was suspended as legates of Syria (the future emperor Vespasian, and then Titus) took charge to fight war in Judaea.

You need to pay attention to Roman and Judaea histories at that time, and part of it, is understanding the politics and policies of that time.

There are different viewpoints:

https://www.bible-history.com/pontius_pilate/pilateISBE_Procurator.htm

 

[gnostic]

There are different viewpoints:

https://www.bible-history.com/pontius_pilate/pilateISBE_Procurator.htm

No, KenS.

You are forgetting one of my earlier reply, where I mentioned the “Pilate Stone”, which has Latin inscriptions dedicating a temple to Tiberius Caesar at Caesarea, with Pilate’s name on it.

This stone is evidence that Pilate was a prefect, not a procurator.

And if Pilate was the one who commissioned the construction of the temple, wouldn’t Pilate know if he was a prefect or a procurator?

You are also forgetting that when Jesus was preaching in Galilee and Judaea and Pilate was governing Judaea, Tacitus was even born yet. And when he did write his two largest works, History and Annals, they were finished in the early 2nd century CE.

I actually admire Tacitus’ works, and read them when I was a teenager and in my early 20s, but that enough time, for even of Tacitus’ caliber as a historian, to make mistakes.

Had Tacitus known about the Pilate Stone, I am sure that Tacitus would have corrected his mistake.

You link to webpage matters little, if it ignored the evidence able to them. Does the author of your link know about the Pilate Stone?

Pay attention, KenS.

 

[metis]

Pilate flew the planes I've been on. There, does that help?

 

[Kenny]

Pay attention, KenS.

You are too funny

 

[ecco]

Well the bible says there was a Roman governor called Pilate. It's an unusual
name but yes, history shows, there really was a Pilate. So that supports the
bible story.
And no-one believed there was a town called Nazareth, but eventually it was
found. So yes, history proved the town existed.
And people didn't believe there was a King David. But now we have the evidence
there was a house of David.
And people didn't believe there was a racial group called Jews, but yes, now DNA
shows the Jews are a distinct people.
And people said in David's day there was no nation with its own literature and
government. But yes, we have found there was in fact a nation at 1000 BC.

What's your point?

 

[ecco]

True. I am not arguing for any one person's POV. I am arguing that people in general
see Einstein like figures as belief role models. It goes like this, "If so-and-so is the
most intelligent person on earth, and he or she doesn't believe in God, who am I to
believe in God?"
That's why Einstein's "God letter" was so newsworthy last month.

Only ignorant people equate intelligence to religious beliefs. Rational people understand that early childhood indoctrination is a much stronger source for belief.

 

[ecco]

The independent documentation only supports the 12 eyewitnesses but the eyewitnesses are the most important. Thus we accept the gospels--because of their proximity to what happened

Are you really going to continue to try to sell the idea the MMLJ were eyewitnesses?

 

[PruePhillip]

What's your point?

The point is people think the bible is fiction, like the pantheon
of Greek gods. The bible makes a claim to history, and bit by
bit this history is emerging.

 

[PruePhillip]

Did Josephus Refer to Jesus

Josephus dedicated half a book to Herod's family.
It he believe in the Jesus account he would have written at least as much.
As it was, he even ignored the burgeoning Christian movement. He was
a Pharisee, after all.
Jesus accounts in his works were later additions.

 

[tayla]

My point is simply, the more we find archaeology that supports the Bible, the more the Bible become reliable. Obviously one alone doesn't establish a truth but it continues to be verified.

Conversely, the more of these that contradict the Bible, the more the Bible becomes unreliable. Sadly for Christian claims, this category far outweighs the other.

 

[PruePhillip]

Conversely, the more of these that contradict the Bible, the more the Bible becomes unreliable. Sadly for Christian claims, this category far outweighs the other.

Bible claims:
1 - historic
2 - personal
3 - supernatural

1 - The history of the bible is slowly coming to light. Just a cursory inspection
shows that in 2017 the following came to light
Merneptah's destruction of Gezer
12th Dead Sea Scroll found
Seal impressions of Jerusalem and the Judean & Israel kings
Timna copper mine - connection to Jerusalem and King Solomon
Discovery relating to city of Bethsaida
Portion of portico from Solomon's porch Second Temple
Biblical Archaeology’s Top 10 Discoveries of 2017

2 - Personal accounts can't be verified. But the culture these people moved in can be.
For Abraham the royal archive at Mari has opened up extra-biblical references to the
Bronze Age of the Middle East. Material which was not available to people in Babylonian
and Greek times, when some hope the bible was written.

3 - Supernatural, but definition, can neither be proven nor disproved.