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ONCE AGAIN! Facts in the Bible is supported by archaeology.

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
That is correct. You don't know. Can you come up with a rational explanation of how it could have happened?



Is there any shred of evidence to support that allegation. Is there anything written in the bible that even hints at this scenario of yours? No.



Why would you believe that John was an eyewitness? There are no reputable biblical scholars who believe that.


Can you present any writings of prominent atheists who said ancient Jews are dumb? Or is that just something that you wrote to make a feel-good general criticism of atheists?

Oh, yes, easy one.
:)
You know this theory that the Old Testament was written in Babylonian
or Greek times. Well one argument was that the Jews had no writing
or language of their own - they were just Canaanites back in the days
of the days of the so-called mythic King David.
But why would the Jews not have their own writing when the Egyptians,
Phoenicians, Assyrians, Sumerians and everyone else could write?
Only real answer was that they were stupid.

I must look this up. How far back can scientists trace the genetics
of the Kohanim line? One article said the genetics traced 4,000 years
but that might be a circular argument about the biblical Levi and the
priesthood. We can date when a genetic line separates for some
species or genetic variations - not sure if that works with the Levites
and the patrilineal leader Levi, son of Jacob. That would end the
belief of "biblical scholars" that the story of the twelve tribes was
fabricated. And then later, everyone will deny they ever said the
twelve tribes was a fantasy.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Is there any shred of evidence to support that allegation. Is there anything written in the bible that even hints at this scenario of yours? No.

Why would you believe that John was an eyewitness? There are no reputable biblical scholars who believe that.

You can't go saying "there's no evidence" for everything assertion
someone makes - often things are common sense, like someone
wanting to record what Jesus said - and usually no-one kept
records of everything which was done, said and thought back then,
or that such records had any hope of surviving.
As an aside, I notice how many things the "historian" Josephus
wrote which are not accepted, such as his population figures.
Yes Josephus is an "historian" and Luke is just a myth writer.

I believe John wrote down what Jesus said fairly close to when
he said it because of the detail in the notes. Just read the latter
half of John's Gospel. The argument goes that John made up
the dialogue of Jesus because he couldn't have remembered
it 70 years later.

As an aside. People back then trained to memorize speeches.
Memorizing the entire Iliad wasn't considered unusual.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You can't go saying "there's no evidence" for everything assertion
someone makes - often things are common sense, like someone
wanting to record what Jesus said - and usually no-one kept
records of everything which was done, said and thought back then,
or that such records had any hope of surviving.
As an aside, I notice how many things the "historian" Josephus
wrote which are not accepted, such as his population figures.
Yes Josephus is an "historian" and Luke is just a myth writer.

I believe John wrote down what Jesus said fairly close to when
he said it because of the detail in the notes. Just read the latter
half of John's Gospel. The argument goes that John made up
the dialogue of Jesus because he couldn't have remembered
it 70 years later.
Common sense is the excuse of those that have no evidence usually presented using poor reasoning. It is best to avoid that phrase in a debate it is roughly equivalent to admitting that one has nothing.

The reason that we know that Luke is a fiction writer is that he got the facts behind his nativity myth so extremely wrong.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Common sense is the excuse of those that have no evidence usually presented using poor reasoning. It is best to avoid that phrase in a debate it is roughly equivalent to admitting that one has nothing.

The reason that we know that Luke is a fiction writer is that he got the facts behind his nativity myth so extremely wrong.

Of course Luke got the nativity "wrong."
No woman gave birth to the Son of God, ask any biblical scholar.
Scholars cannot say that God spoke to Mary, that's not scholarship.

When we have one hundredth of one percent evidence concerning
any issue, I am happy to employ common sense. Did they have
sewing needles in ancient Israel? Suppose for argument sake
"there's no evidence of sewing needles." What do you think?

Same with the domestication of camels. No-one has found a camel
saddle in the early Bronze Age so we say people didn't ride camels
and the Abraham story is a myth. But common sense tells you that
if people domesticated camels and loaded them with trading goods
then people rode them as well. I would if I was trudging across the
desert.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Of course Luke got the nativity "wrong."
No woman gave birth to the Son of God, ask any biblical scholar.
Scholars cannot say that God spoke to Mary, that's not scholarship.

When we have one hundredth of one percent evidence concerning
any issue, I am happy to employ common sense. Did they have
sewing needles in ancient Israel? Suppose for argument sake
"there's no evidence of sewing needles." What do you think?

Same with the domestication of camels. No-one has found a camel
saddle in the early Bronze Age so we say people didn't ride camels
and the Abraham story is a myth. But common sense tells you that
if people domesticated camels and loaded them with trading goods
then people rode them as well. I would if I was trudging across the
desert.
Forget the obvious mythical parts for now. The topic is why we know that Luke's nativity is fiction.

and "common sense" is a way of admitting that you have nothing. It is not wise to use that phrase.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Your linked site did not support your claim. The populations given of Rome were not from one census,. I am still waiting for one clear empire wide census.

Nor did your attempt to misuse the census in Egypt. That did not require people to go to their ancestral homes. That was an unwarranted assumption.

There was a empire-wide census, but that occurred 2 decades ago, in 27 BCE, in which Judaea wasn’t included in the census. And it was the only time that it had occurred, not 3 times or so @The Anointed claimed. No such census around Jesus’ supposed birth.

In 30 BCE, with then Octavian defeated Marcus Antonius and Cleopatra, he had all the powers, in which he was elected consul each year till 27 BCE, where he gained new powers and new titles (maius imperium proconsulare, tribunicia potestas) as well as changed his name to Augustus, in which he controlled all but a few provinces.

27 BCE reform of the empire was known as the “First Settlement”. The 2nd reform or the “Second Settlement” occurred in 23 BCE.

But getting back to my original point, there was no 2nd census throughout the Roman Empire in 6 BCE, as well as there being no census in Judaea itself, while Herod remained alive as a client king.

Census only occurred if it was a newly made Roman province, which Judaea wasn’t. Judaea was a client kingdom, and only had to either (A) pay tributes (not taxes) to Rome, or (B) provide troops or ships.

Census only occurred when Augustus ousted Archelaus from Judaea, and turned Judaea into a new Roman province in 6 CE...which was 10 years after Herod’s death in 4 BCE.

All that @The Anointed is doing is making up stories and excuses.
 
Last edited:

ecco

Veteran Member
Can you present any writings of prominent atheists who said ancient Jews are dumb? Or is that just something that you wrote to make a feel-good general criticism of atheists?
Oh, yes, easy one.
:)
You know this theory that the Old Testament was written in Babylonian
or Greek times. Well one argument was that the Jews had no writing
or language of their own - they were just Canaanites back in the days
of the days of the so-called mythic King David.
But why would the Jews not have their own writing when the Egyptians,
Phoenicians, Assyrians, Sumerians and everyone else could write?
Only real answer was that they were stupid.

I must look this up. How far back can scientists trace the genetics
of the Kohanim line? One article said the genetics traced 4,000 years
but that might be a circular argument about the biblical Levi and the
priesthood. We can date when a genetic line separates for some
species or genetic variations - not sure if that works with the Levites
and the patrilineal leader Levi, son of Jacob. That would end the
belief of "biblical scholars" that the story of the twelve tribes was
fabricated. And then later, everyone will deny they ever said the
twelve tribes was a fantasy.
  • this theory
  • one argument was
  • Only real answer was that they were stupid.
  • later, everyone will deny
Perhaps you didn't understand:
Can you present any writings of prominent atheists who said ancient Jews are dumb? Or is that just something that you wrote to make a feel-good general criticism of atheists?
If you did understand, why could you not present any writings of prominent atheists who said ancient Jews are dumb?

All you did was post your own commentary.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
You can't go saying "there's no evidence" for everything assertion
someone makes - often things are common sense, like someone
wanting to record what Jesus said

When it comes to analyzing history there is an obligation to seek evidence. That's why I asked "Is there any shred of evidence to support that allegation?"

Note that I wasn't asking for overwhelming evidence, just any shred.

You don't have any, so you ask that we rely on common sense. As an example you suggest that someone wanted to record what Jesus was saying. There are at least two problems with this. One, it assumes that someone was with Jesus at all times to make verbatim records of his words. Second, with extensive quotes like the 2000+ word Sermon on the Mount, there was no shorthand in those days, there were no stenographic machines. So "common sense" tells us there is no way that Jesus' words could have been accurately recorded.


- and usually no-one kept
records of everything which was done, said and thought back then,
or that such records had any hope of surviving.

Exactly, no one kept records of the words of an itinerant heretic preacher.

I believe John wrote down what Jesus said fairly close to when
he said it because of the detail in the notes. Just read the latter
half of John's Gospel. The argument goes that John made up
the dialogue of Jesus because he couldn't have remembered
it 70 years later.

You are entitled to your opinion. However, your opinion is not based on "common sense" nor is it supported by biblical scholars.




As an aside. People back then trained to memorize speeches.
Memorizing the entire Iliad wasn't considered unusual.
People memorized things back then the same way they do now - rote repetition. It is done by reading and rereading and repeatedly reciting something. That could not have been the case with the Sermon on the Mount which was given only once.


Regarding the recording of Jesus' words:
Historic Scholarship - 0
Common Sense - 0
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
If you did understand, why could you not present any writings of prominent atheists who said ancient Jews are dumb?.

Yeah, easy. They reckoned everyone could write except Jews.
And the Jews had no national book or history because they couldn't write.
It's the same as saying they were dumb.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
... there was no shorthand in those days, there were no stenographic machines. So "common sense" tells us there is no way that Jesus' words could have been accurately recorded.

There actually was, and "scholars" found it in some of the words used in the New Testament.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Yeah, easy. They reckoned everyone could write except Jews.
And the Jews had no national book or history because they couldn't write.
It's the same as saying they were dumb.
I don't think anyone is making that argument. That the early Hebrews may not have had a method to record their thoughts would not mean that they were stupid.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
People memorized things back then the same way they do now - rote repetition. It is done by reading and rereading and repeatedly reciting something. That could not have been the case with the Sermon on the Mount which was given only once.

Thucydides’s account of the Peloponnese war gives numerous speeches.
This guy took the time to memorize things, like many did back then. And
more, he admitted that some of the speeches were embellished or even
made up as he wasn't there to hear them.
Bad historian? Thucydide's accused Homer and Herodotus of being bad
historians.
So maybe all historians can't be trusted.

Just reading yesterday about the man Legion in the land of the Gadarenes.
Seems there was another discrepancy there. "Historical Context - Did this
happen in the Gerasenes, Gadarenes or Gadara? Matthew, Mark and Luke
all refer to a different place."
16. Healing the Demoniac at Gadara

I am glad there was no editorial hand, going over manuscripts to iron out
"discrepancies", otherwise you would say "Four historians cannot be
expected to give the same identical account. This proves the bible is
fake."

As for Jesus' sermon on the mount. It says that he first spoke to his
disciples, and the crowds heard him speak. Why the disciples? Because
he was teaching them his doctrine and how to preach it. I suppose Jesus
would have said similar things everywhere he went, and thus these things
were easy to remember.
The sequence of the sermon in Matt 5 is interesting, beginning with
"blessed are the poor in spirit" - that's the foundation text and probably
often used at the start. We have to be "poor in spirit" as the first point of
contact with God. Saying "blessed are the meek" or the "pure in heart"
can disenfranchise others who haven't learned these things. It's quite
clever, really.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
I don't think anyone is making that argument. That the early Hebrews may not have had a method to record their thoughts would not mean that they were stupid.

It's more the implication. "Everyone in the class can read
except for that little Jew boy. We ain't saying he's dumb,
mind you."
Recall the story of the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts. He was
the Treasurer for Queen Candace. Why would a black
Ethiopian learn Hebrew/Aramaic and the bible, and then
go to Jerusalem? Probably because he might have been
a Jew - Jews were employed throughout the Middle East
for their acumen in finances.
As the prophecy was, the Jews would be a blessing to the
world, and whoever blessed the Jews would be blessed and
whoever cursed the Jews would be cursed (Genesis 12, 15,
17 etc..)
Those nations that drove their Jews out suffered as a result
as they lost so much skill and talent.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It's more the implication. "Everyone in the class can read
except for that little Jew boy. We ain't saying he's dumb,
mind you."
Recall the story of the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts. He was
the Treasurer for Queen Candace. Why would a black
Ethiopian learn Hebrew/Aramaic and the bible, and then
go to Jerusalem? Probably because he might have been
a Jew - Jews were employed throughout the Middle East
for their acumen in finances.
As the prophecy was, the Jews would be a blessing to the
world, and whoever blessed the Jews would be blessed and
whoever cursed the Jews would be cursed (Genesis 12, 15,
17 etc..)
Those nations that drove their Jews out suffered as a result
as they lost so much skill and talent.

That is your strawman, time for a new argument. No one is taking it seriously.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
No, it really has not. To refute it you would need evidence that they wrote.

We don't need to "refute" but draw an intelligent assessment
that ALL THE CIVILIZATIONS in the Bronze Age could write.
And the Jews were at least as smart as anyone else. In King
David's day they had what is termed Paleo-Hebrew, and
before that they used a Canaanite form of Proto-Sinaitic.

Israel simply never made monuments to her greatness like
Babylon and Egypt. And Israel's history wasn't in obelisks
and Mesha Stele style monuments - it was in the bible
itself. This is where the circular argument comes from
concerning "proving" Israel's claims.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
We don't need to "refute" but draw an intelligent assessment
that ALL THE CIVILIZATIONS in the Bronze Age could write.
And the Jews were at least as smart as anyone else. In King
David's day they had what is termed Paleo-Hebrew, and
before that they used a Canaanite form of Proto-Sinaitic.

Israel simply never made monuments to her greatness like
Babylon and Egypt. And Israel's history wasn't in obelisks
and Mesha Stele style monuments - it was in the bible
itself. This is where the circular argument comes from
concerning "proving" Israel's claims.
That would be an unwarranted assumption. That the oldest books in the Bible date to younger dates than other civilizations indicates that either the ancient Hebrews could not write or that the religion is younger than you believe it to be. For example Job is thought by many scholars to be the oldest book in the Bible and it is dated to roughly the 6th century BCE:

Book of Job - Wikipedia
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Okay, the argument that the Jews couldn't have written the Old
Testament back in the Bronze Age because they couldn't read
or write has been proven wrong.
We don't need to "refute" but draw an intelligent assessment
that ALL THE CIVILIZATIONS in the Bronze Age could write.
And the Jews were at least as smart as anyone else. In King
David's day they had what is termed Paleo-Hebrew, and
before that they used a Canaanite form of Proto-Sinaitic.
It is not a matter of being literate or not, but the fact that there were no “written scriptures” in the Bronze Age, hence no evidences for the scriptures to exist in Bronze Age. There are no Bronze Age stone or clay tablets of Genesis, Exodus, psalms in the 2nd millennium BCE, in which Abraham to Saul and David supposedly had lived.

Inscriptions found in two early Iron Age stones, the Gezer Calendar and the Zayit Stone, both from the 10th century BCE, make no references to or quoted passages from any scripture.

Every evidences we do have, points to far from the mid-1st millennium BCE, meaning from the time of King Josiah to the after the 2nd temple was constructed.

There are no busy writing again, until the 3rd century BCE when translation began with the Septuagint and the first of scrolls from Qumran (ie the Dead Sea Scrolls). And from the 2nd century CE to 9th century CE, the destruction of the temple in 70 CE, we see rabbis attempt to record not only the Tanakh (the Hebrew Bible, known as the Masoretic Text), but also all Oral Torah and other oral traditions, which are known collectively today as the Rabbinic Literature, such as the Talmud, Midrash, Aggadah, etc.

The thing is that no Bronze Age scriptures exist that pertained to the ancient Judaism. It doesn’tt exist in Bronze Age archive in Megiddo, and yet there are clay tablet fragments from the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Why would we find a Babylonian legend of Gilgamesh, but no works from Moses or David in the Canaanite Megiddo?

If Joshua did take Megiddo after Moses’ death you should see the transitions from the Canaanite to Hebrew, but that’s not the case. The scant evidences (eg Gezer Calendar and Zayit Stone) that we do have of paleo-Hebrew alphabet, showed lack of Hebrew scriptural writings.

The 10th century BCE, was supposedly the Golden Age of kingdom of Israel, eg Solomon, the richest monarch and supposed builder of temple and palace in Jerusalem, you would have thought that people should be make abundant copies of works by Moses, David and Solomon, and yet all do have in the 10th century BCE are just bunch of inscriptions that had nothing to do with scriptures.

We only start to evidences trickling down, beginning with King Josiah, like possibly the Silver Scrolls, the earliest surviving texts (from the late 7th century BCE) that contained a small passage of Numbers 6, the Priestly Blessings. Much of the fragments of the Silver Scrolls remained unreadable. And we have found nothing older than this.

It not so much as being dumb but more to do with scriptures weren’t around before Josiah’s reign and his religious reform.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It is not a matter of being literate or not, but the fact that there were no “written scriptures” in the Bronze Age, hence no evidences for the scriptures to exist in Bronze Age. There are no Bronze Age stone or clay tablets of Genesis, Exodus, psalms in the 2nd millennium BCE, in which Abraham to Saul and David supposedly had lived.

Inscriptions found in two early Iron Age stones, the Gezer Calendar and the Zayit Stone, both from the 10th century BCE, make no references to or quoted passages from any scripture.

Every evidences we do have, points to far from the mid-1st millennium BCE, meaning from the time of King Josiah to the after the 2nd temple was constructed.

There are no busy writing again, until the 3rd century BCE when translation began with the Septuagint and the first of scrolls from Qumran (ie the Dead Sea Scrolls). And from the 2nd century CE to 9th century CE, the destruction of the temple in 70 CE, we see rabbis attempt to record not only the Tanakh (the Hebrew Bible, known as the Masoretic Text), but also all Oral Torah and other oral traditions, which are known collectively today as the Rabbinic Literature, such as the Talmud, Midrash, Aggadah, etc.

The thing is that no Bronze Age scriptures exist that pertained to the ancient Judaism. It doesn’tt exist in Bronze Age archive in Megiddo, and yet there are clay tablet fragments from the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Why would we find a Babylonian legend of Gilgamesh, but no works from Moses or David in the Canaanite Megiddo?

If Joshua did take Megiddo after Moses’ death you should see the transitions from the Canaanite to Hebrew, but that’s not the case. The scant evidences (eg Gezer Calendar and Zayit Stone) that we do have of paleo-Hebrew alphabet, showed lack of Hebrew scriptural writings.

The 10th century BCE, was supposedly the Golden Age of kingdom of Israel, eg Solomon, the richest monarch and supposed builder of temple and palace in Jerusalem, you would have thought that people should be make abundant copies of works by Moses, David and Solomon, and yet all do have in the 10th century BCE are just bunch of inscriptions that had nothing to do with scriptures.

We only start to evidences trickling down, beginning with King Josiah, like possibly the Silver Scrolls, the earliest surviving texts (from the late 7th century BCE) that contained a small passage of Numbers 6, the Priestly Blessings. Much of the fragments of the Silver Scrolls remained unreadable. And we have found nothing older than this.

It not so much as being dumb but more to do with scriptures weren’t around before Josiah’s reign and his religious reform.
I would think that the news that the Old Testament may not be that old and is largely mythical would be a relief to most Christians. After all the God of the Old Testament is portrayed as being incompetent, vain, immoral and vengeful. How could anyone worship such a God?
 
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