"One Fact to Refute Creationism"

[sayak83]

I believe that they were not human ancestors or members of Mankind.

I do not believe this "in spite" of any evidence because I have not yet seen anything that should convince anyone that those creatures were our ancestors.

I am always willing to learn more, so if you think there is evidence that proves that they were our ancestors, please share it.

What kind of evidence would convince you that we evolved from these hominin species?

 

[Polymath257]

I believe that they were not human ancestors or members of Mankind.

I do not believe this "in spite" of any evidence because I have not yet seen anything that should convince anyone that those creatures were our ancestors.

I am always willing to learn more, so if you think there is evidence that proves that they were our ancestors, please share it.

Well, considering the general scientific community seems to be convinced, I might ask what you would require. That they existed before there were humans? That they have the structural adaptations that show relationship to humans? That they used tools like humans?

What do you think is missing in the claims that these were human ancestors? Do we need to show films of every single generation over the last 3 million years?

 

[Prestor John]

Your posts tell us that is not so.

Explain, exactly, how my posts tell you or anyone that I don’t mean what I said.

I do not see the evidence supporting the theory.

That is my perspective. That is my opinion. That is my belief.

So, please explain how my posts do not reflect that.

I think you are making assumptions and are trying to somehow exaggerate what I have said.

Please note that I said "can" and not "will". "Can" does not guarantee success. I have seen far too many dishonest and cowardly creationists to claim that they will change their mind.

Why do you instantly assume that a person is either dishonest or cowardly for disagreeing with you?

How do you not see how that behavior is no different than those types of Creationists you obviously despise?

Not only do I believe the evidence does not support the theory, but I have also come to believe that you are incapable of convincing anyone of anything.

You are doing a disservice to everyone in this discussion through your negative behavior.

No, it is not. It is the voice of experience.

This is my first, and hopefully last, conversation I have ever had with you.

To what “experience” are you referring? Your experience discussing this topic with everyone, except me?

What makes you think you can make an assumption about what I do or do not know based on that experience?

One cannot honestly claim that there is no evidence for evolution. That is either the product of a lie or ignorance.

I have not made that claim.

All I have said is that I have seen no evidence that Mankind evolved from another species.

I can and have supported my claim.

Not to me, you have not.

All you have done in this conversation has been using bullying tactics and making assumptions and generalization about me, my beliefs, my experiences and what I know.

The few creationists that discussed the concept of evidence with me ran away when it became obvious even to them that I am right.

I’m sure you consider people no longer putting up with your rude behavior as “running away”.

I have had many delightful discussions about this and other relevant topics, because no one was being rude or condescending, like you are being.

Condescension arises when a student refuses to learn.

Yet, you have been condescending towards me from nearly the very beginning of this conversation.

You have yet to even teach me anything. You have not even shared a single shred of evidence to support your claims.

All you have done is told me that I’m wrong, ignorant or deceitful.

How could I be considered you “student” if you have never been my “teacher”?

How can you claim that I refuse to learn anything when you have yet to share anything?

One reaps what one sows.

There is nothing to reap because nothing was sown.

One should not complain about well earned condescension, it is hypocritical.

“Well earned”? You and I have barely spoken!

You must be confusing me with someone else.

Again your posts tell us this.

You keep making statements like these without providing any examples or references.

It is akin to a Creationist declaring something was true because it was in the Bible.


You are no different than those you obviously despise and I find it hilarious.

And you, you made claims against others that you cannot support.

What false claims and who did I make them against?

I do not see where I made claims about anyone, let alone false ones.

That is "bearing false witness". False witness is not limited to lying.

It’s also called slander.

Can you share an example of me doing this or are you, ironically, the one guilty of it by accusing me without any evidence?

That may be, but I sincerely doubt it. Tell me what parts of reality you reject. Do you accept the fact that life is the product of evolution?

I don’t consider that a question concerning reality because I do not accept that theory as fact.

I have repeatedly asked you to supply the incontrovertible evidence that supports that theory, but you’ve been too busy telling me I’m wrong, ignorant or deceitful.

If you do ever decide to share this evidence, don’t reference an entire research paper to prove your point (like a Creationist would reference the entire Bible), but point out the exact piece of information you feel is the most compelling.​

 

[Prestor John]

At best you have been coy in your beliefs which is a very moderate attempt to be dishonest.

Your behavior has convinced me that you do not care at all about my beliefs, so why would I share them and be guilty of casting my pearls before swine?

It has nothing to do with dishonesty.

You, on the other hand, keep claiming that there are these irrefutable facts out there that prove you right, but have yet to share a single one.

So, stop the childish name-calling and pouting about conversations you’ve had with other Creationists and do as I told you to do, “Sock it to me”.

Wrong, I know that the story as told in the Bible is false.

How am I “wrong” for claiming that you believe that the idea of a Creation event has been refuted when you say things like this?

Also, I don’t know why you keep bringing up the Bible as a standard when I never did.

You have mere belief, I can support my claims.

Can you, though?

I mean, you have yet to support any of your claims to me, so are you asking me to blindly believe that you can, in fact, support your claims or what?

You need to learn the difference between knowing and believing.

I have repeatedly claimed that what I have been sharing are my beliefs.

It is you who seems to be confused about what is or is not belief.

If I made an error it is due to your dishonest approach here. You need to honestly lay out your beliefs if you want to make this claim about others. Otherwise we have to go by the ignorant posts that you have made.

I never made an argument citing the Genesis account of the Creation as any kind of authority.

You just like making your assumptions.

All I did was share my belief that the evidences used by many to explain the Evolution of Man do not actually support that theory. And also that there is no evidence against a Creation event.

Then I asked you to share how I was wrong.

How would delving further into my beliefs help you prove that you are right?

Perhaps you are not actually in the business of proving yourself right, but you actually desire to merely prove others wrong?

It looks like you are the one being dishonest here.

Actually I believe that I did that earlier and I have done so here.

Nope.

If you want a more thorough explanation you need to ask properly and politely.

Not that I have been rude, but why should I be inclined to be polite to you when you never felt so inclined to be polite to me?

That means one question in a post.

Where is this rule that “being polite means one question per post” written?

From what authority do you base that argument?

In a long post like this where you jump from subject to subject only gets the lightest of explanations.

My method on this site is to directly quote what the other person says and then respond directly to it, so if you feel that my posts “jump from subject to subject”, that would be because your initial post jumped from subject to subject.

First you need to demonstrate that you can be honest and polite.

First, your claim that I am neither honest nor polite is baseless.

Second, it is very hypocritical for you to demand honesty and politeness from me when you have been the furthest thing from either throughout this entire discussion.

Lastly, explain how whether I am honest and/or polite should have any affect on your ability to prove yourself right.

You saying these things further convinces me that you have no desire to prove yourself right, but rather you desire to prove others wrong.

Your rude response of excessively breaking up a post does not bode well.

You are arguing from an unknown authority again.

By what standard do you judge my directly quoting a person before responding to be rude?

I do not consider it rude at all. In fact, I consider it to be very considerate because now you know exactly what I am addressing and nothing you said was ignored or lost.

To repeat, if you want to go over a point in more detail you need to bring up the points you do not understand separately, one at a time.

How can I do this when I believe that I do understand, yet disagree with the conclusions people have drawn?

You are the one who assumes I do not understand, not I.

Let's keep it simple and polite and I will have no problem in helping you to learn.

Great.

Simply share those evidences you believe are most convincing in support of the Evolution of Man and the rejection of Creationism.

Don’t forget to cite your sources when appropriate.

Thanks.​

 

[allright]

What is the difference in honesty between lying, and
deliberate deception? (falsifying evidence)

They have chosen deception by rejecting the truth as shown in his Word They want the Bible to be false Its part of God's judgement for sin for rejecting his Son and his word. Its part of the punishment for those who have rejected him
Its all over the Bible he lets those who are living as his enemies to be deceived as part of his judgement against them

 

[Subduction Zone]

Your behavior has convinced me that you do not care at all about my beliefs, so why would I share them and be guilty of casting my pearls before swine?

It has nothing to do with dishonesty.

You, on the other hand, keep claiming that there are these irrefutable facts out there that prove you right, but have yet to share a single one.

So, stop the childish name-calling and pouting about conversations you’ve had with other Creationists and do as I told you to do, “Sock it to me”.
How am I “wrong” for claiming that you believe that the idea of a Creation event has been refuted when you say things like this?

Also, I don’t know why you keep bringing up the Bible as a standard when I never did.
Can you, though?

I mean, you have yet to support any of your claims to me, so are you asking me to blindly believe that you can, in fact, support your claims or what?
I have repeatedly claimed that what I have been sharing are my beliefs.

It is you who seems to be confused about what is or is not belief.
I never made an argument citing the Genesis account of the Creation as any kind of authority.

You just like making your assumptions.

All I did was share my belief that the evidences used by many to explain the Evolution of Man do not actually support that theory. And also that there is no evidence against a Creation event.

Then I asked you to share how I was wrong.

How would delving further into my beliefs help you prove that you are right?

Perhaps you are not actually in the business of proving yourself right, but you actually desire to merely prove others wrong?

It looks like you are the one being dishonest here.
Nope.
Not that I have been rude, but why should I be inclined to be polite to you when you never felt so inclined to be polite to me?
Where is this rule that “being polite means one question per post” written?

From what authority do you base that argument?
My method on this site is to directly quote what the other person says and then respond directly to it, so if you feel that my posts “jump from subject to subject”, that would be because your initial post jumped from subject to subject.
First, your claim that I am neither honest nor polite is baseless.

Second, it is very hypocritical for you to demand honesty and politeness from me when you have been the furthest thing from either throughout this entire discussion.

Lastly, explain how whether I am honest and/or polite should have any affect on your ability to prove yourself right.

You saying these things further convinces me that you have no desire to prove yourself right, but rather you desire to prove others wrong.
You are arguing from an unknown authority again.

By what standard do you judge my directly quoting a person before responding to be rude?

I do not consider it rude at all. In fact, I consider it to be very considerate because now you know exactly what I am addressing and nothing you said was ignored or lost.
How can I do this when I believe that I do understand, yet disagree with the conclusions people have drawn?

You are the one who assumes I do not understand, not I.
Great.

Simply share those evidences you believe are most convincing in support of the Evolution of Man and the rejection of Creationism.

Don’t forget to cite your sources when appropriate.

Thanks.​

Can you be polite? Can you be honest? Your posts,to date indicate that you cannot do so. If you want people to do more than to simply point out your errors you need to improve your behavior here.

 

[Subduction Zone]

They have chosen deception by rejecting the truth as shown in his Word They want the Bible to be false Its part of God's judgement for sin for rejecting his Son and his word. Its part of the punishment for those who have rejected him
Its all over the Bible he lets those who are living as his enemies to be deceived as part of his judgement against them

You are apparently projecting your faults upon others. The Bible is not accepted because it has been shown to be wrong.

 

[Darkstorn]

They have chosen deception by rejecting the truth as shown in his Word They want the Bible to be false Its part of God's judgement for sin for rejecting his Son and his word. Its part of the punishment for those who have rejected him
Its all over the Bible he lets those who are living as his enemies to be deceived as part of his judgement against them

You are telling rational people that your god is wrathful and spiteful. How do you think it will be received?

I'm going to make the guess that you have never converted a single person. Who would possibly want to be part of such a hateful machine?

 

[allright]

You are apparently projecting your faults upon others. The Bible is not accepted because it has been shown to be wrong.

Shown to be wrong by who and how

 

[allright]

You are telling rational people that your god is wrathful and spiteful. How do you think it will be received?

I'm going to make the guess that you have never converted a single person. Who would possibly want to be part of such a hateful machine?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Shown to be wrong by who and how

By those that have studied our world.

 

[allright]

Hes a loving God but he in no way will clear the guilty

 

[allright]

By those that have studied our world.

They cant judge the Bible if they dont how to interpret it correctly
.

 

[Darkstorn]

Hes a loving God but he in no way will clear the guilty

But so far you've essentially told us that instead of being loving and forgiving, he's deceitful, vengeful, spiteful and judgemental.

I think you are giving your religion a bad name.

They cant judge the Bible if they dont how to interpret it correctly
.

According to your interpretation your god would deserve NO forgiveness or respect.

 

[Prestor John]

Does anyone say that anything refutes a supreme creator?

Really? Who? It is pretty stupid if they do.

Many people make that claim, including Stephen Hawking, a supposed smart guy.

I'd not say the opinions of such persons is worth anything.

Whose opinion of what the bible really means is wort h sometime?

I'd say a prophet's interpretation of the Bible is our best bet.

If you believe in a world wide flood I'd say it is most evident that you are unaware of t he wealth of information that shows beyond the trace of a reasonable doubt that there was no such flood.

I have seen many things people claim are evidences against a worldwide Deluge, but I disagreed with their conclusions.

What do you believe are the most convincing evidences against a worldwide Flood?

Unaware, for lo, we dont wish to suggest intellectual dishonesty, which would be called for to deny the validity of such data.

You believe I would be dishonest if I disagreed with the conclusions drawn by the evidences you would share?

What you've seen, and what is there are not really the same.

They are not at all the same and I never said otherwise.

I can only comment on what I've seen. What I know.

To make claims about anything else would be dishonest.

I kind of dont think you've looked very hard,
much as you've not looked at data that falsifies the flood story.

Because I disagree I must be ignorant?

Then enlighten me.

It may not be safe to look if one's faith relies certain readings of scripture.

Luckily my faith does not rely on any scripture.

Scripture is an amazing tool, but only a tool.

Claiming that faith relies on scripture would be like claiming that science relies on textbooks.

As for "proves... ancestors" that is moving the goal post. Science does not do proof. Neither do courts, Math does. I guess whiskey does.

I wouldn't know anything about whiskey.

If science does not prove, then why are so many on this thread claiming that it does?

 

[Prestor John]

What kind of evidence would convince you that we evolved from these hominin species?

That is a great question, but a little misleading.

Convincing me doesn't prove anything.

 

[allright]

But so far you've essentially told us that instead of being loving and forgiving, he's deceitful, vengeful, spiteful and judgemental.

I think you are giving your religion a bad name.



According to your interpretation your god would deserve NO forgiveness or respect.

Hes always ready to forgive sinners, but those who chose to continue in evil he will destroy

 

[Darkstorn]

Many people make that claim, including Stephen Hawking, a supposed smart guy.

If you think you're so smart, how about providing a quote that provides his thoughts on the matter?

I think saying stuff like that makes you look ignorant.

 

[Darkstorn]

Hes always ready to forgive sinners, but those who chose to continue in evil he will destroy

Thanks for proving my point in its entirety.

 

[Prestor John]

Well, considering the general scientific community seems to be convinced, I might ask what you would require.

This argument from authority is no different than someone referencing the Bible to convince people to reject Evolution.

Scientific truth is not one of consensus.

My Church has taught against the practices of drinking alcohol and smoking tobacco during the days when physicians claimed that both were good for you.

That they existed before there were humans?

Lots of things existed on this planet before humans.

That they have the structural adaptations that show relationship to humans?

Humanoid = Human?

That they used tools like humans?

There are animals that use stones and sticks.

What do you think is missing in the claims that these were human ancestors?

I would have to know everything there is to know about the given topic in order to answer that.

I never claimed to know everything. I have repeatedly stated that I do not know everything.

That is why I have asked others to present their most convincing evidence.

Do we need to show films of every single generation over the last 3 million years?

I'd watch that.