One God or many gods

[URAVIP2ME]

Hoooooold On there fellah -- let us not be making stuff up out of the blue and attributing it to poor Ha Satan ?? . Ha Satan of Job is never is claimed nor proved to be a liar ... nor does Jesus prove he is a liar .. or claim Ha Satan is a Liar when undergoing his ritual testing .......

Now .. 1 cor 15:24 -- no idea what to make of that passage at first read .. don't get what you do .. hard to relate this a specific dark force whicch would not be Ha Satan but .. rather the Primordial Chaos Dragon .. whome YHWH is depicted fighting in many a psalm .. the one called "The Old Serpent" I believe in one place... but again this is not ha Satan ... wrong address.

Huh? As revealed in the case of the man Job (Job 2:4) who remained loyal to God as Sovereign HaSatan claims that he could turn all humans away from God.
Job 2:5 ' touch bone and flesh ' (loose health) apply enough pressure on us and sooner or later a man will Not serve God. A universal challenge is involved because HaSatan set himself up as a Rival Ruler to God.
All of HaSatan's attacks on Job and Jesus failed to make HaSatan's point of Job 2:5.
Job and Jesus remained obedient and loyal to God under adverse conditions.

1st Cor. 15:24-26 is speaking about the end time of Jesus' coming 1,000 year reign over Earth.
This is when 'enemy death ' will cease to exist on Earth and people will have everlasting life on Earth.
Life forever on Earth as originally offered to Adam before his downfall.

 

[osgart]

I believe in one foundational comprehensive universal truth. One God makes no sense since that would be very anti social. The Truth is social thus there are probably an infinity of beings that have always existed. The word God denotes power and authority with the Truth over all inferior beings. I wouldn't ever just hand over the title of God to some being I've never met. There is no sign of any benevolent, nor malevolent God here on Earth.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

................................................................................................................................................................................................
If God ever decides to come to earth, for Christians He must come down as a blond young male, tall, blue-eyed and answer
to the name Jesus
If He came down as a woman or a black man, they will reject him
If He came down as a brown man and said His name was Rama, they might try to lynch him!
For Muslims God must come down as a bright light and speak with a booming voice, male, of course!

Huh? How can God come to Earth when the heavens of heavens can't contain God -> 1st Kings 8:27
God answers to His name YHWH, and Jesus answers to his own name.
Even Jesus will Not come back to Earth is a physical way - John 14:19 - the world will see Jesus No more.
So, Jesus' coming is with invisible angelic armies; what will become visible is in the sense that Jesus' sword-like executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid the Earth of wickedness - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I believe in one foundational comprehensive universal truth. One God makes no sense since that would be very anti social. The Truth is social thus there are probably an infinity of beings that have always existed. The word God denotes power and authority with the Truth over all inferior beings. I wouldn't ever just hand over the title of God to some being I've never met. There is no sign of any benevolent, nor malevolent God here on Earth.

We can meet the God of the Bible through the pages of the Bible. Through the teachings of Jesus.
Jesus taught (John 17:17) that Scripture is: Religious Truth. Not truth in general.
The 'sign of God on Earth', so to speak, is 'God's people' spreading the good news of God's Kingdom government (Daniel 2:44) on an international scale today to the nations just as Jesus said at Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8.
Over the centuries No one nor anything can stop Bible people and No one nor anything can get rid of the Bible.

 

[Sargonski]

Huh? As revealed in the case of the man Job (Job 2:4) who remained loyal to God as Sovereign HaSatan claims that he could turn all humans away from God.
Job 2:5 ' touch bone and flesh ' (loose health) apply enough pressure on us and sooner or later a man will Not serve God. A universal challenge is involved because HaSatan set himself up as a Rival Ruler to God.
All of HaSatan's attacks on Job and Jesus failed to make Satan's point of Job 2:5.
Job and Jesus remained obedient and loyal to God under adverse conditions.

Satan does not claim to be able to turn all humans away from God... you are reading thigns into the text that are not there .. likely reciting from one of hundreds of apologist websites who have gone to great lengths (the devils hands at work) to explain away the numerous highly problematic theological issues .. first and foremost that this "Ha Satan" is a Son of God .. and one with great Godly powers .. but what you are intentionally blocking out .. is the fact that while the Job Title of this God is "The Adversary" he is not an adversary to God. in fact everything Satan is doing is at the behest of God .. with God's full complicity .. God setting the boundaries for Ha Satan's action .. and Ha Satan obeying.

Ha Satan does his God Given Job .. in the book of Job. Ha Satan shows up during the ritual trial and testing of Jesus .. because God sent him on that mission .. and because it is his Job .. among principalities.

Ha Satan is not a rival to Gods Power .. that is a complete discombobulation and reversal of the Text -- sure there is a father-son rivalry of sorts .. but this is not something against God as you are trying to depict. The rival to Ha Satan .. "brother from another Mother" if you will the other "Tester of Souls" in the story .. is who ?

Let me paint a picture for you .. Matt 25 -- one of your favorites I know . Sheep and Shepherd Parable .. the Sola Fide Destroyer --more hands of the devil fooling the flocks .. Idol Martin Luther usurpation of the Logos .. a tragic and unforgivable sin

Who is depicted .. Judge, Jury .. and executioner at the end of days .. exactly as the Egyptian ideology of MAAT dictates .. at the end of days .. your deeds are weighed .. and if found too light -- fed to the monster. Here we have Jesus performing the same function "Tester of souls" and if found too light what happens ???

44 Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

so of you want a rival .. Jesus would be your fellow but even there- Ha Satan is tester of souls on Earth -- Jesus tester of souls on the path between earth and heaven.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

............................... .. first and foremost that this "Ha Satan" is a Son of God ..

Let me paint a picture for you .. Matt 25 -- one of your favorites I know . Sheep and Shepherd Parable .. the Sola Fide Destroyer --more hands of the devil fooling the flocks .. Idol Martin Luther usurpation of the Logos .. a tragic and unforgivable sin
Who is depicted .. Judge, Jury .. and executioner at the end of days .. exactly as the Egyptian ideology of MAAT dictates .. at the end of days .. your deeds are weighed .. and if found too light -- fed to the monster. Here we have Jesus performing the same function "Tester of souls" and if found too light what happens ???
44 Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
so of you want a rival .. Jesus would be your fellow but even there- Ha Satan is tester of souls on Earth -- Jesus tester of souls on the path between earth and heaven.

We find God had two Son/son's: One good Son aka Jesus and one bad son aka Satan.
Jesus is the King mentioned at Matthew 25:34
I find ' the tester of souls ', so to speak, is one's reaction to Scripture - John 12:48-50
So, how the figurative 'sheep and goats' have treated Jesus' spiritual ' brothers' (Matt. 25:40) is a basis for judgement.
Jesus' spiritual 'brothers' (verse 40) on the path to heaven.
The 'sheep and goats' being on the path to either 'everlasting life on earth' or 'forever destruction for the wicked'.
- Psalm 92:7; Psalm 104:35; Psalm 145:20; Proverbs 2:21-22; Psalm 37:9-11; Psalm 22:26

 

[The Hammer]

To people on RF who believe in many gods, why do you believe that and not in only one god?

To people on RF who believe in one god, why do you believe that and not in many gods?

Many Gods. As always was, as always will be.

 

[беспокойный путешественни]

To people on RF who believe in many gods, why do you believe that and not in only one god?

It is completely illogical to assume that not many gods, who are not always in agreement with each other, are responsible for every single aspect of this wondrous world, but rather one single god. Especially as it is clear where the many gods come from - the one god, however, remains silent about his own origins. It's as simple as that.

 

[Soandso]

It is completely illogical to assume that not many gods, who are not always in agreement with each other, are responsible for every single aspect of this wondrous world, but rather one single god. Especially as it is clear where the many gods come from - the one god, however, remains silent about his own origins. It's as simple as that.

A good point. It's hard for me to imagine how a single just god of law and order would allow for the existence of a universe that is so contradictory and chaotic. Doesn't seem very likely to me

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Genesis 22​

Tweetthis!
The Sacrifice of Isaac
22:1 Some time after these things God tested 1 Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!” “Here I am!” Abraham 2 replied. 22:2 God 3 said, “Take your son – your only son, whom you love, Isaac 4 – and go to the land of Moriah! 5 Offer him up there as a burnt offering 6 on one of the mountains which I will indicate to 7 you.”
22:3 Early in the morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. 8 He took two of his young servants with him, along with his son Isaac. When he had cut the wood for the burnt offering, he started out 9 for the place God had spoken to him about.
22:4 On the third day Abraham caught sight of 10 the place in the distance. 22:5 So he 11 said to his servants, “You two stay 12 here with the donkey while 13 the boy and I go up there. We will worship 14 and then return to you.” 15
22:6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and put it on his son Isaac. Then he took the fire and the knife in his hand, 16 and the two of them walked on together. 22:7 Isaac said to his father Abraham, 17 “My father?” “What is it, 18 my son?” he replied. “Here is the fire and the wood,” Isaac said, 19 “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?” 22:8 “God will provide 20 for himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son,” Abraham replied. The two of them continued on together.
22:9 When they came to the place God had told him about, Abraham built the altar there 21 and arranged the wood on it. Next he tied up 22


There is clearly child sacrifice.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

A good point. It's hard for me to imagine how a single just god of law and order would allow for the existence of a universe that is so contradictory and chaotic. Doesn't seem very likely to me

It becomes understandable if we understand god as collective consciousness. Smaller collective are chaotic. Larger collective, God, distills the chaos into a policy. Somewhat like chaotic cabinet being distilled by the president.

 

[беспокойный путешественни]

It becomes understandable if we understand god as collective consciousness.

So, "god" as a collective, like the Borg?

 

[RamaRaksha]

Genesis 22​

Tweetthis!
The Sacrifice of Isaac
22:1 Some time after these things God tested 1 Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!” “Here I am!” Abraham 2 replied. 22:2 God 3 said, “Take your son – your only son, whom you love, Isaac 4 – and go to the land of Moriah! 5 Offer him up there as a burnt offering 6 on one of the mountains which I will indicate to 7 you.”
22:3 Early in the morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. 8 He took two of his young servants with him, along with his son Isaac. When he had cut the wood for the burnt offering, he started out 9 for the place God had spoken to him about.
22:4 On the third day Abraham caught sight of 10 the place in the distance. 22:5 So he 11 said to his servants, “You two stay 12 here with the donkey while 13 the boy and I go up there. We will worship 14 and then return to you.” 15
22:6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and put it on his son Isaac. Then he took the fire and the knife in his hand, 16 and the two of them walked on together. 22:7 Isaac said to his father Abraham, 17 “My father?” “What is it, 18 my son?” he replied. “Here is the fire and the wood,” Isaac said, 19 “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?” 22:8 “God will provide 20 for himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son,” Abraham replied. The two of them continued on together.
22:9 When they came to the place God had told him about, Abraham built the altar there 21 and arranged the wood on it. Next he tied up 22


There is clearly child sacrifice.

To me this is simple - Ancient people lived under Kings, Dictators and used them as a template for God
hence all the - Get down on our knees, beg, blindly obey(kill my OWN son? Yes, Master), sing his praises etc
Take their terminology - "Commandments, Submit, beg, obey, judge, wrath, mercy, punish, forgive, Fear" ALL Slave/Servant words totally absent in Hinduism/Buddhism
The word Lord has crept into Hinduism/Buddhism/Judaism - I believe such a slave word does not belong in these faiths
We are not slaves/servants - we do not view God as a Master to be blindly obeyed
.
But that was the life the ancients had - they were uneducated people with limited knowledge of the world around them
They envisioned an afterlife that was similar to what they had down on earth - not very imaginative of them
What is amazing and astounding to me is to see TODAY'S people - much more educated, knowledgeable and living in totally different societies blindly following these primitive views of God!

 

[RamaRaksha]

Many Gods. As always was, as always will be.

In Many Gods - there is less hate & division
God Rama is Jesus is the Buddha is Allah is Yahweh and so on
But sadly, except for Hindus and maybe Buddhists - few others would agree with this
Hindus believe that yes there is only One God but He/She/It can have different names, different manifestations
He could reach all of us at the same time, so over time He showed up in different forms for different people - but the idea is the same - to be better selves, to be good people
So for Christians He came down as Jesus, for Muslims as Allah or Muhammad his messenger, for Buddhists as the Buddha and so on
It is one and the same person with different names
.
But the people of the One God have weaponized Him, use him to push their religion, colonized Heaven, it is just for themselves and threaten anyone who does not agree
God becomes a Dictator - like Putin - "Believe in me, support me, sing only my praises or else!"
and we say Putin is evil, criminal
But change the name to God and repeat the EXACT same words and we get songs of praise!
Amazing how easy we are to fool

 

[RamaRaksha]

Huh? How can God come to Earth when the heavens of heavens can't contain God -> 1st Kings 8:27
God answers to His name YHWH, and Jesus answers to his own name.
Even Jesus will Not come back to Earth is a physical way - John 14:19 - the world will see Jesus No more.
So, Jesus' coming is with invisible angelic armies; what will become visible is in the sense that Jesus' sword-like executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid the Earth of wickedness - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15

So God is limited to what he can do? He is stuck in heaven, unable to leave? Can only send down his son and messengers?
But the issue is not what God can or cannot do or which way Jesus comes back - the question is if God does decide to come,
what form will he take?
Will he have to take a pleasing form to please Christians and Muslims? A form their religion tells them God must be like?
Sooo, He will answer to only one name? Any other name that is not God? God is limited by a name?
.
This issue was actually done in a movie - A star trek movie - I am not sure about the name - with William Shatner
In the movie Shatner and a few of his men get stuck on a planet - they can communicate with their ship but cannot beam up
Then "God" shows up - all thunder and magic and shows up as an old, good-looking man with white beard
After chatting with Shatner and his crew for a while, "God" asks them - "is this form to your liking? What you envision God to be like?"
.
This is the reason why Hindu images of God are so different - human both male and female, half human, half animal, a monkey etc
It is telling us that God can take any form, can be anyone He or She wants to be
.
And this idea was put to beautiful use by George Lucas in the 2nd star wars movie - in that the hero goes in search of a great teacher - everyone then was expecting an old wise looking white man with a grey beard - but instead they get a little green comical "creature" - Yoda - the great Teacher he was looking for!
I wish Lucas had given Hinduism some credit - clearly the inspiration for Yoda was Ganesha - Lucas must have seen the image of Ganesha somewhere and that inspired him to create Yoda in that image

 

[RamaRaksha]

I believe in one foundational comprehensive universal truth. One God makes no sense since that would be very anti social. The Truth is social thus there are probably an infinity of beings that have always existed. The word God denotes power and authority with the Truth over all inferior beings. I wouldn't ever just hand over the title of God to some being I've never met. There is no sign of any benevolent, nor malevolent God here on Earth.

One God descends down to a Communist, Dictator style God - Believe in me, support me and me only, sing only my praises and be rewarded or else!
That is not what it was supposed to be but that is what God has been reduced down to - a Putin
And this is from people living in democracies where choice, freedom is celebrated

 

[osgart]

One God descends down to a Communist, Dictator style God - Believe in me, support me and me only, sing only my praises and be rewarded or else!
That is not what it was supposed to be but that is what God has been reduced down to - a Putin
And this is from people living in democracies where choice, freedom is celebrated

I'm against theocracy. And in the leadership of the West, God and religion is used as a political ploy to gain self serving power.

The real battleground is in people's perception of what reality actually is, and what constitutes a genuinely good life worth living. Just those two things determines everything.

Evil is without cause, and blind ignorance ruin everything.

The trouble with God is that God is made in the image of what a human wants God to be. Then they go about claiming God to justify whatsoever they want to do.

The West is a split between secular, and religious. One side is too liberal, and the other is religious bigotry with nothing charitable toward other citizens.

I go with the secular because that's where people have the most freedom, and tolerance. I don't expect everyone to conform to my truth, and it's my conviction that people should be able to live out there own truth as they see fit so long as they don't do undue harm and damage to others.

There are some truths I'm against, but I can tolerate them so long as they are not forcing their acceptance on me, and those unwilling to live in their ways.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I'm against theocracy. And in the leadership of the West, God and religion is used as a political ploy to gain self serving power.
The real battleground is in people's perception of what reality actually is, and what constitutes a genuinely good life worth living. Just those two things determines everything.
Evil is without cause, and blind ignorance ruin everything.
The trouble with God is that God is made in the image of what a human wants God to be. Then they go about claiming God to justify whatsoever they want to do.
The West is a split between secular, and religious. One side is too liberal, and the other is religious bigotry with nothing charitable toward other citizens.
I go with the secular because that's where people have the most freedom, and tolerance. I don't expect everyone to conform to my truth, and it's my conviction that people should be able to live out there own truth as they see fit so long as they don't do undue harm and damage to others.
There are some truths I'm against, but I can tolerate them so long as they are not forcing their acceptance on me, and those unwilling to live in their ways.

Since the modern day definition of theocracy is: clergy rule or rule by clergy class then yes be against that theocracy.
The theocracy Jesus believed in is God's Kingdom government ( thy kingdom come.... ) - Daniel 2:44; 7:13-14
As far as being against some truths, so was Jesus. Jesus believed Scripture is ' religious truth ' - John 17:17
Jesus never forced the acceptance on anyone. We all have voluntary free-will choice.
Eve freely chose the secular (Genesis 3:6) self-determining what was good or bad in her eyes, her mind.
Apparently Eve wanted to be her own goddess by turning away from God.
We are all invited to pray to God the invitation for Jesus to come - Revelation 22:20
'Come' because only through Jesus will there be ' healing ' for earth's nations - Revelation 22:2

 

[Sargonski]

We find God had two Son/son's: One good Son aka Jesus and one bad son aka Satan.
Jesus is the King mentioned at Matthew 25:34
I find ' the tester of souls ', so to speak, is one's reaction to Scripture - John 12:48-50
So, how the figurative 'sheep and goats' have treated Jesus' spiritual ' brothers' (Matt. 25:40) is a basis for judgement.
Jesus' spiritual 'brothers' (verse 40) on the path to heaven.
The 'sheep and goats' being on the path to either 'everlasting life on earth' or 'forever destruction for the wicked'.
- Psalm 92:7; Psalm 104:35; Psalm 145:20; Proverbs 2:21-22; Psalm 37:9-11; Psalm 22:26

There is no Bad Son Satan in the OT -- with respect to rebelling against God. .. the Devil of Revelations is NOT Ha Satan ..

You could say that the tester of souls can be a barrier to humans .. .. like the talking donkey scene where Ha Satan blocks the way and directs Balaam down a different path .. and in terms of a Human perspective it is Lord Jesus the one that is throwing people into hell .. as per the passage underdiscussion Matt 25 -- not Lord Satan .. It is Jesus who then would be the "bad son" accoding to a human perspective .. but to God .. both Sons are acting according to the Will of the Father .. doing their instructed missions ..

Nor is Lord Satan is the Prodical Son - not veering away from the will of God .. Jesus on the other hand .. "Please take this cup from my hand" .. expressing a desire to go against Gods will .. then later .. after having relented to God's will .. cursing his Father .. maybe not cursing but close .. definite insubordination ... "My God .. My God .. why have you forsaken me" --- expressing that his God has let him down .. Jesus expecting that God would come to the rescue at the last moment and provide a substitute like in the case of Isaac..

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So God is limited to what he can do? He is stuck in heaven, unable to leave? Can only send down his son and messengers?
But the issue is not what God can or cannot do or which way Jesus comes back - the question is if God does decide to come,
what form will he take?
Will he have to take a pleasing form to please Christians and Muslims? A form their religion tells them God must be like?
Sooo, He will answer to only one name? Any other name that is not God? God is limited by a name?
This issue was actually done in a movie - A star trek movie - I am not sure about the name - with William Shatner
In the movie Shatner and a few of his men get stuck on a planet - they can communicate with their ship but cannot beam up
Then "God" shows up - all thunder and magic and shows up as an old, good-looking man with white beard
After chatting with Shatner and his crew for a while, "God" asks them - "is this form to your liking? What you envision God to be like?"
This is the reason why Hindu images of God are so different - human both male and female, half human, half animal, a monkey etc
It is telling us that God can take any form, can be anyone He or She wants to be
And this idea was put to beautiful use by George Lucas in the 2nd star wars movie - in that the hero goes in search of a great teacher - everyone then was expecting an old wise looking white man with a grey beard - but instead they get a little green comical "creature" - Yoda - the great Teacher he was looking for!
I wish Lucas had given Hinduism some credit - clearly the inspiration for Yoda was Ganesha - Lucas must have seen the image of Ganesha somewhere and that inspired him to create Yoda in that image

In the Bible God is Not only God but The Creator - Revelation 4:11
From Heaven God sends forth His spirit - Psalm 104:30
God's spirit is His Power, His strength, His abundant dynamic energy - Isaiah 40:26

All of us come from fallen-father Adam. None of us can stop sinning thus we all die.
We can't resurrect oneself or another so we need someone who can resurrect us. Restore us to life.
Because pre-human heavenly Jesus was sinless then Jesus could come to balance the Scales of Justice for us.
That is why God sent Jesus to Earth for us to undo what Adam did wrong to us.
Adam was un-faithful under favorable conditions.
Jesus proved faithful under adverse conditions. - Revelation 1:18
Star Trek or Star Wars movies can't give us everlasting life neither in Heaven or on Earth.
Star Trek or Star Wars movies can't end war on Earth but God can and will - Psalm 46:9; Micah 4:3-4
The beautiful paradisical picture described in Isaiah 35th chapter is the future for the humble meek people who will inherit the Earth as promised at Matthew 5:5 from Psalms 37:9-11; 22:26