One of my problems with Islam

[fghi]

What age do you think a person should be before they are taught this?

Any age should be ok as long as the person can make sense of our explanation about the beliefs .

 

[illykitty]

What do you understand as Shirk (Associating Partners with Allah)?

Taking anything that isn't Allah as your god, basically. There are many forms of shirk, including taking a prophet as god (like Jesus in the Christian trinity) or idols, etc.

That's how I understand it.

 

[FearGod]

Taking anything that isn't Allah as your god, basically. There are many forms of shirk, including taking a prophet as god (like Jesus in the Christian trinity) or idols, etc.

That's how I understand it.

So that is the main difference between Islam and other religions.

As you said for example that Christians believe on Jesus,so according to Islam their path is away of the straight path and hence we can see other sins which can be done in Christianity since their path which they chose is away of the straight path of submission to the one God and of course God doesn't care if we will worship him or not but still gives us chances to escape from following the evil ways which let us away of God,as we do now by thinking why not thinking for other Gods,then thinking of Jesus or a cow or an Idol and open the gates for other nonsense things such as what we heard recently in the news about some Indian people worship a man because he got a tail.

Indian man with tail worshipped as god

Reference: http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/religion/indian-man-with-tail-worshipped-as-god/article/369694

 

[illykitty]

That's true, FearGod. This is for our own benefit.

Ok now I came across another issue: Apostasy. I haven't looked if there was topics already on these forums yet. I've only briefly looked on other sites.

All I can say, is if apostasy was a reason to kill someone, I would have been killed many times already and not had a chance to return to Islam. To me, that makes no sense.

Someone might have intellectual reasons for leaving but upon closer inspection, days, months or even a year later return to Islam. Now if death was punishment, this person wouldn't have a chance to change their minds. So basically they die in a state of disbelief...

I don't think it makes sense.

Now of course if this person takes arms against Muslims or something... I'd understand.

 

[FearGod]

That's true, FearGod. This is for our own benefit.

Ok now I came across another issue: Apostasy. I haven't looked if there was topics already on these forums yet. I've only briefly looked on other sites.

All I can say, is if apostasy was a reason to kill someone, I would have been killed many times already and not had a chance to return to Islam. To me, that makes no sense.

Someone might have intellectual reasons for leaving but upon closer inspection, days, months or even a year later return to Islam. Now if death was punishment, this person wouldn't have a chance to change their minds. So basically they die in a state of disbelief...

I don't think it makes sense.

Now of course if this person takes arms against Muslims or something... I'd understand.

The apostasies were worriers who left Islam and prepared an Army to stop the Islamic state by force.

No compulsion is there in religion. Rectitude has become clear from error. So whosoever disbelieves in idols and believes in God, has laid hold of the most firm handle, unbreaking; God is All-hearing, All-knowing. (2:256)

[youtube]6wqf1wPEI94[/youtube]
khaled ibn walid - battle of Yarmuk - YouTube

 

[illykitty]

The apostasies were worriers who left Islam and prepared an Army to stop the Islamic state by force.

No compulsion is there in religion. Rectitude has become clear from error. So whosoever disbelieves in idols and believes in God, has laid hold of the most firm handle, unbreaking; God is All-hearing, All-knowing. (2:256)

[youtube]6wqf1wPEI94[/youtube]
khaled ibn walid - battle of Yarmuk - YouTube

Well this is what I thought from reading Qur'an and then seeing a few Hadiths. I'm just wondering if it is the mainstream view. Some Muslims on certain forums (that I won't name) view this opinion as "soft", "westernised", "modernised" and so on. They say some people made it up to be more "acceptable".

They think ALL apostates should be killed. :cover: I find this extreme plus, doesn't the Qur'an describe some people believing, then disbelieving, then believing again... How would this be possible if ALL apostates are killed?

It doesn't leave any room for change of heart... I'm sure many people left Islam because of misunderstanding or whatever reason then returned later on because they found new understanding. Sometimes it can take a long time to find a new perspective. Weeks, months, years... I know because it happens to me. Although I admit my fault in not searching enough and leaving when things got too hard.

Also, I must admit when doubting, sometimes the issue isn't Islam, it's Muslims that are harsh and have extreme views which makes things depressing, hard and lonely for a revert. I'm not saying you should change Islam for a revert. :no: But it's silly to think that just because you question the harsh view that you're following desires. I have intellect and logic... And I'd rather not accept a harsh view without proof and reasoning.

My mind tells me that it's illogical to kill an apostate that doesn't fight Islam, they might change their mind later on.

 

[FearGod]

Well this is what I thought from reading Qur'an and then seeing a few Hadiths. I'm just wondering if it is the mainstream view. Some Muslims on certain forums (that I won't name) view this opinion as "soft", "westernised", "modernised" and so on. They say some people made it up to be more "acceptable".

They think ALL apostates should be killed. :cover: I find this extreme plus, doesn't the Qur'an describe some people believing, then disbelieving, then believing again... How would this be possible if ALL apostates are killed?

It doesn't leave any room for change of heart... I'm sure many people left Islam because of misunderstanding or whatever reason then returned later on because they found new understanding. Sometimes it can take a long time to find a new perspective. Weeks, months, years... I know because it happens to me. Although I admit my fault in not searching enough and leaving when things got too hard.

Also, I must admit when doubting, sometimes the issue isn't Islam, it's Muslims that are harsh and have extreme views which makes things depressing, hard and lonely for a revert. I'm not saying you should change Islam for a revert. :no: But it's silly to think that just because you question the harsh view that you're following desires. I have intellect and logic... And I'd rather not accept a harsh view without proof and reasoning.

My mind tells me that it's illogical to kill an apostate that doesn't fight Islam, they might change their mind later on.

Yes it doesn't make any sense to kill a person just because he/she doesn't believe in God and it is also not mentioned in the holy book.

God is opening the door of repentance and he forgives sins then how come to kill a person while God is giving us the opportunity to repent till the last day of our life on earth.

Freedom of religion is explicit in the quran.

Say: O unbelievers, (109:1)

I serve not what you serve (109:2)

and you are not serving what I serve, (109:3)

nor am I serving what you have served, (109:4)

neither are you serving what I serve (109:5)

To you your religion, and to me my religion! (109:6)

 

[Rational_Mind]

Taking anything that isn't Allah as your god, basically. There are many forms of shirk, including taking a prophet as god (like Jesus in the Christian trinity) or idols, etc.

That's how I understand it.

This should help you understand why Shirk is an unforgivable Sin. You will understand how Shirk is the source of much the evil committed by man today.

You will understand by this how shirk is the source of many evils in the World. In this age reason has taken mankind further away from tangible idols but they have taken intangible things as idols.


The Arabic term for idolatry is Shirk. Someone engaged in Shirk or someone in the state of Shirk is known as a Mushrik. The ‘idol’ in question may or may not be visible. Whether the idolater or mushrik worships a physically perceivable idol or one concealed in his heart, he is in either case, dwelling in the state of shirk or idolatry. The state of shirk or idolatry may therefore be not only undeclared, but also intangible. It is very plausible to have a Muslim, even a seemingly practicing one, existing in a perpetual state of shirk, while being completely unaware of this spiritual state of his. In such a case, the idol in question, would obviously not be an apparent one, but would rather be a non-material one. The idol could well be his own ego, his desires, his material lusts, his wealth or his desire to be popular. Any of these entities can absorb the attention of man to a degree that matches worship. That being the case, any of these entities would assume the role of an idol or god. It is with reference to this form of idolatry or shirk that the Holy Prophet Muhammad(saw) says, “Save yourselves from shirk-us-saraa’ir”. The Arabic term shirk-us-saraa’ir literally means hidden idolatry. What is being implied is that true insight into God’s absolute oneness can not be attained without cleansing one’s heart, mind and soul of all forms of idols – apparent and hidden.

Focused attention at its highest peak and love in its exceedingly intense form is ‘worship’ indeed. Objects that attract such attention and love, thus earn the status of idols, even if they are not in the physical form of idols. The Qur’an speaks of two such inconspicuous idols – idols that remain hidden in the deepest recesses of the human mind. Firstly, we read in the Qur’an: “Hast thou seen him who takes his own desire for his god?” (Ch.25:V.44). Thus the Qur’an categorises man’s intense desire as an idol – a hidden idol that is capable of completely capturing human attention. Our desires can be absorbing enough to be classified as idols, while we may not even be aware of the fact that the attention we are awarding them can be as intense as worship. Secondly, we also read in the Qur’an: “And you love material wealth with an exceeding love” (Ch.89:V.21). Thus does the Qur’an rate material wealth, whether in the form of belongings or in the shape of aspirations, as idols. The rationale behind this categorisation is the simple fact that love, in its extreme and exceeding form, is virtually the same as worship. By the same logic, Heaven and Hell too, can become idols. If the motivation behind good deeds is the desire for Heaven or the deterrence against wrongdoing is the fear of Hell, then Heaven and Hell too, are idols. The Promised Messiah(as) imparts to us true insight in this matter, through his profound words of enlightenment. The Promised Messiah(as) says, “Our God is our Paradise.” (Kishti-e Nuh), p. 30).
- See more at: Absolute Oneness - The Review of Religions

"and you were on the brink of a pit of fire and He saved you from it."
Al-e-‘Imran, 3:104

Meaning that: Before the advent of this Prophet you had arrived at the brink of hell; The Jews and the Christians were warned that they had perverted the Books of God and had led all the people in every type of mischief and misconduct, and the idol worshippers were charged with worshipping stones, men, stars, and the elements and that they had forgotten the True Creator and were guilty of devouring the property of orphans and of killing children and of doing wrong to their partners, and that they had transgressed beyond measure in everything. It was said:

"Know that Allah is now quickening the earth after its death."
al-Hadid, 57:18

That is to say: Beware that the whole earth had died and would now be revived afresh by God. In short, the Holy Qur’an charged the whole world with Shirk— paganism, misconduct and idol worship, which are the source of evils, and held the Christians and the Jews to be at the root of all evil and set out all the types of vices in which they indulged. The Qur’an drew such a picture of the misconduct of the world that except in the case of the age of Noah, no other age appears to resemble it.
(Nur-ul-Qur’an, No. I, Ruhani Khaza’in, Vol. 9 pp. 333-356)

Associating others with God takes many forms and is called shirk . There is the obvious shirk in which Hindus, Christians, Jews and other idol worshippers indulge, in which a man or stone or lifeless things or faculties or fictitious deities are worshipped as God. Though this form of shirk is still current in the world, yet this is the age of light and education, and reason is beginning to abhor this form of shirk . It is true that some people subscribe to these stupidities as part of their national religion, yet at heart they are beginning to be repelled by them.

But there is another type of shirk , which is spreading secretly like poison and it is greatly on the increase in this age and that is that there is no trust in and dependence upon God Almighty.
(Anjam-e-Atham, Ruhani Khaza’in, Vol. 11, pp. 34-36)

It is explained in more detail here.