One Undeniable Proof of the Qur'an

[Kilgore Trout]

and yet there is no precedent for any ordinary man, not claiming to be a prophet, of predicting the same about his own message (convincing victory) and utter defeat of all those who are opposing him.

Exhibit A

 

[control.to.win]

Exhibit A

You seem like you have no intelligent rebuttal to this argument. If you do, I would be willing to read it seriously and reply as such. Obviously not the same courtesy you have shown to my post.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

You seem like you have no intelligent rebuttal to this argument. If you do, I would be willing to read it seriously and reply as such. Obviously not the same courtesy you have shown to my post.

I learned long ago that people who base their views on assumed conclusions are never open to actual honest discussion or intelligent rebuttals. Nothing personal - just something that's proven to be consistently true.

 

[England my lionheart]

This is exactly what IT SHOULD SEEM LIKE. It cannot go unnoticed that all prophets of God, whether you look through the old testament or carefully read through the vedas, made the same claim in their time of weakness. That not only would they be victorious over their opposers, but their opposers would also be destroyed or join him. Allah says:


58:22] [FONT=_PDMS_Saleem_QuranFont]كَتَبَ اللّٰهُ لَاَغْلِبَنَّ اَنَا وَرُسُلِىْ*ؕ اِنَّ اللّٰهَ قَوِىٌّ عَزِيْزٌ‏ [/FONT]

Allah has decreed: ‘Most surely I will prevail, I and My Messengers.’ Verily, Allah is Powerful, Mighty.​

So this is a habit of God with those He sends to this world. ​

"And you will never find a change in the action of Allah"​

So what went wrong,once Islam hit Europes shores and was turned back Islam has been in decline as a single entity,no more Caliphs,no unity,no central reference point other than the Qur'an,no agreement on which ahadith is sahih which is not, which has led to many sects and disunity,sorry to say this but it sure does'nt look like a winner to me.

 

[Kerr]

There is one proof of the Holy Qur'an that cannot be dismissed. And it is is as follows:

A man, from the sandhills of Arabia, one of the most ignorant areas of the world at the time, declares that he is a Prophet of God. He is unlettered and has never formally been taught anything. His first order of business is to tell the world that he is a prophet from God, and that there is only one God. And all polytheists are false. Not only that, he declares the Jews and Christians to be false as well.

In one fell swoop, he has turned the entire world against him. The idolators declare he should be killed, the Jews and Christians declare him a heretic. Friends turn to foes. And he his left alone with only a handful of followers. He declares not only that everyone else is false in their beliefs, but that they are faithless, hellbound if they don't reform, ignorant, and their fathers of old were also as ignorant as they are.
Instead of building relations, he is breaking every avenue of his worldly success.

He then declares that God has promised him victory over all his opponents. He dumbfounds all philosophers and clergymen with undeniable arguments from the revelation he is given. He declares that the kings of the world will be conquered when they oppose his message. So, 1 man vs. the entire known world. He sticks to his message, and changes not one iota to reform to the beliefs of the society. He declares that God will grant him all prominence and grandeur, and that all his enemies will be humiliated.

And the crazy thing is, that it happens. It's like someone from the middle of the Amazon jungle, not having one day of schooling, declaring that he will conquer the U.S and Russia, that his greatness will be shown to the world and everyone else humiliated and he somehow manages it. And he declares all this when he has not even enough followers to count on the tips of his fingers.

This is the beauty of Prophecy in the Qur'an. Other scriptures only describe things like earthquakes and pestilence will happen, which anyone can predict. But who can predict their own victory and the humiliation of all their opposers within their own lifetime? And that such a thing also comes true?

At the very least, it demands that any serious seeker of truth look into the rest of the claims of the holy Qur'an. In regards to prophecy, there doesn't seem to be any grander sort of prophecy that can be shown by God in support of a prophet of his.

Djingis Khan came from being an outcast to uniting a scattered nation and then build the largest empire the world has ever known. History is filled with people who came from nothing but that managed to become more then anyone ever thought was possible. So I wouldn´t call what you wrote here an undeniable proof of anything.

 

[hyacinthus]

nobody mentioned Sun Myung Moon, the great korean prophet who defied all odds and end up with a younger wife who happened to be his third. This prophet was even given by God the right to marry an alcoholic with a nice girl. This is proof that Sun Myung Moon is the real prophet of God. join the Unification church, guys!

 

[control.to.win]

Djingis Khan came from being an outcast to uniting a scattered nation and then build the largest empire the world has ever known. History is filled with people who came from nothing but that managed to become more then anyone ever thought was possible. So I wouldn´t call what you wrote here an undeniable proof of anything.

hyacinthus

nobody mentioned Sun Myung Moon, the great korean prophet who defied all odds and end up with a younger wife who happened to be his third. This prophet was even given by God the right to marry an alcoholic with a nice girl. This is proof that Sun Myung Moon is the real prophet of God. join the Unification church, guys![/guys]

Again you have not read my previous post carefully. The miracle of the Holy Prophet wasn't solely in his victory. It was that
1. The prophecy was not merely of victory, but his utter victory and total defeat of his enemies (2 parties mentioned here)
2. This prophecy was made when he was utterly alone, had no great political alliances to achieve his goals

coincidentally, he was also preaching a message totally against all the powerful factions of the society.

Show me the same facts and prophecies from the lives of both khan and Sun Myung Moon (and I mean verifiable facts).

 

[McBell]

Show me the same facts and prophecies from the lives of both khan and Sun Myung Moon (and I mean verifiable facts).

Wait...
You ask for "verifiable" facts from others, yet present the Koran for yours?

 

[control.to.win]

Wait...
You ask for "verifiable" facts from others, yet present the Koran for yours?

This needs no great explanation. The Qur'an is, as far as it is possible to humanly prove, the same Qur'an as when it was first recited in Mecca at the time of it's revelation. There has been no solid evidence to the contrary to prove that it has ever been tampered with.

Therefore, as a historical source, the Qur'an ranks as an authentic primary source of info for that time period. So, the prophecies recorded in it for this event are KNOWN to have been recited and heard in that time period. Besides, other books of history, written close to that time, have also verified the events sorrounding this prophecy. (If you got a problem with this statement, take it up in another thread...this thread is not for this particular subject...)

If you believe this prophecy is wrong or reproducible, cite your authentic historical sources, according to the criteria or this prophecy.

 

[McBell]

This needs no great explanation. The Qur'an is, as far as it is possible to humanly prove, the same Qur'an as when it was first recited in Mecca at the time of it's revelation. There has been no solid evidence to the contrary to prove that it has ever been tampered with.

Therefore, as a historical source, the Qur'an ranks as an authentic primary source of info for that time period. So, the prophecies recorded in it for this event are KNOWN to have been recited and heard in that time period. Besides, other books of history, written close to that time, have also verified the events sorrounding this prophecy. (If you got a problem with this statement, take it up in another thread...this thread is not for this particular subject...)

If you believe this prophecy is wrong or reproducible, cite your authentic historical sources, according to the criteria or this prophecy.

Just as soon as you prove that it is an actual prophecy.
Good luck.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

This is exactly what IT SHOULD SEEM LIKE. It cannot go unnoticed that all prophets of God, whether you look through the old testament or carefully read through the vedas, made the same claim in their time of weakness. That not only would they be victorious over their opposers, but their opposers would also be destroyed or join him. Allah says:

58:22] [FONT=_PDMS_Saleem_QuranFont] كَتَبَ اللّٰهُ لَاَغْلِبَنَّ اَنَا وَرُسُلِىْ*ؕ اِنَّ اللّٰهَ قَوِىٌّ عَزِيْزٌ‏ [/FONT]

Allah has decreed: ‘Most surely I will prevail, I and My Messengers.’ Verily, Allah is Powerful, Mighty.

So this is a habit of God with those He sends to this world.

"And you will never find a change in the action of Allah"


​

Obviously every nutjob that thinks they're a prophet thinks they're going to be successful at it. Not one of these prophets, if they did exist, have succeeded in getting the whole world to follow their religion. So have they really defeated all of their enemies?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I am God's most holy prophet that has ever been sent. And since I am educated, it means I know more, so since I know more it must mean that my words hold more truth. After all, if Muhammad didn't know much about anything and said he is the prophet, and honestly I'm inclined to think someone who claims to be a prophet is schizophrenic, delusional, or a teen that doesn't know any better, but if he doesn't know much then it must mean that logically how could he be a prophet? If you can't tell the difference between demonic possession and a mental disorder, how can you be sure this person had some esoteric understanding of the divine?

 

[Kerr]

Again you have not read my previous post carefully. The miracle of the Holy Prophet wasn't solely in his victory. It was that
1. The prophecy was not merely of victory, but his utter victory and total defeat of his enemies (2 parties mentioned here)
2. This prophecy was made when he was utterly alone, had no great political alliances to achieve his goals

coincidentally, he was also preaching a message totally against all the powerful factions of the society.

Show me the same facts and prophecies from the lives of both khan and Sun Myung Moon (and I mean verifiable facts).

He was the son of a tribe leader if I remember correctly, he and his family was abandoned after his father was murdered (which was a death sentence at the time), and several years later he came from being an outcast to uniting the tribes, who was nomadic and constantly fighting each other, and then went on attacking the Xia dynasty. After his victory he went on attacking the Jin dynasty. And that was just the beginning. Eventually he formed the largest contiguous empire the world has ever known. Granted, he was not a religious leader or anything, but the point lies with how he came from nothing and did what many thaught was impossible. Muhammad may have done something amazing, I don´t know because I have not read that much about it, but history has proven that men who does amazing and seemingly impossible things exists.

And I would like to point out that Djingis Khan is also called Genghis Khan (think Djingis Khan is what we call him in my country).
Genghis Khan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[control.to.win]

He was the son of a tribe leader if I remember correctly, he and his family was abandoned after his father was murdered (which was a death sentence at the time), and several years later he came from being an outcast to uniting the tribes, who was nomadic and constantly fighting each other, and then went on attacking the Xia dynasty. After his victory he went on attacking the Jin dynasty. And that was just the beginning. Eventually he formed the largest contiguous empire the world has ever known. Granted, he was not a religious leader or anything, but the point lies with how he came from nothing and did what many thaught was impossible. Muhammad may have done something amazing, I don´t know because I have not read that much about it, but history has proven that men who does amazing and seemingly impossible things exists.

And I would like to point out that Djingis Khan is also called Genghis Khan (think Djingis Khan is what we call him in my country).
Genghis Khan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your point is valid in saying that there are "rags to riches" stories that exist in history. But this is not applicable to the prophecy of Muhammad.

Again, read my earlier post. The greatness of his victory and defeat of all his enemies was in the fact that he prophecised it, when he was utterly alone and without any political support, and preaching a doctrine utterly opposed to all those in power at that time. If a regular man could do this without any divine support, then surely there would be examples of others (con-men) doing the same. Yet we find no one else.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Your point is valid in saying that there are "rags to riches" stories that exist in history. But this is not applicable to the prophecy of Muhammad.

Again, read my earlier post. The greatness of his victory and defeat of all his enemies was in the fact that he prophecised it, when he was utterly alone and without any political support, and preaching a doctrine utterly opposed to all those in power at that time. If a regular man could do this without any divine support, then surely there would be examples of others (con-men) doing the same. Yet we find no one else.

You know there's no evidence Muhammad existed right? I can make a fictional character's story line up perfectly with the prophecy I made for him. It's all very simple stuff.

 

[hyacinthus]

Show me the same facts and prophecies from the lives of both khan and Sun Myung Moon (and I mean verifiable facts).

[/QUOTE]

If you noticed, my statement was just a sarcasm. i don't give any credence to Sun Myung moon or any wanna be prophets whose personal interests and agendas were the reasons why we had to read and memorized the Crusade story in history. Religious intolerance and wars are the results of some wannabe prophet's teachings.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

So, 1 man vs. the entire known world.

Genghis Khan, Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, to name only three.

 

[PolyHedral]

Oooh, are we having a prophesying contest? Because if we are, I submit the astronomer Ogilvy, who lived around 1880 AD. Despite many convincing arguments and evidence to the contrary, he held his ground, because he knew that he was right. We should be thankful of this, because if he had been wrong, the world would have ended in fire and destruction. This, in turn, validates the holy writings of H.G. Wells...

Can you see now why this logic doesn't work?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

The greatness of his victory and defeat of all his enemies was in the fact that he prophecised it, when he was utterly alone and without any political support, and preaching a doctrine utterly opposed to all those in power at that time. If a regular man could do this without any divine support, then surely there would be examples of others (con-men) doing the same. Yet we find no one else.

But, he didn't defeat ALL of his enemies. He only conquered Arabia, and he still had enemies outside and inside Arabia which his predecessors had to fight. And even his predecessors didn't defeat ALL of their enemies beyond the Arabian peninsula.

There's no doubt that Muhammad's conquest was a unique and rare event in history. But there have been lots of unique, rare events in history.

For example, Alexander the Great conquered a much, much larger part of the globe than Muhammad. So did Genghis Khan and others. The Spanish conquistadors defeated the entire Aztec and Mayan civilizations, in a strange continent thousands of miles from home, with only a few hundred men and a zealous belief in their divine, Christian mission.

So sure, Muhammad's conquest was different from other conquests. He conquered less, and he had a larger army than other notable conquests in history. So in some ways it was more impressive, but in other ways it was less impressive than other historical events.

The man who eventually became the Roman emperor Julian was "left an orphan in the hands of the murderers of his family" (from The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Gibbon). He also preached a religion (Paganism) which was hated, outlawed, and persecuted by the Roman state, which was officially Christian and ruled by a Christian emperor at that time. He was recognized as a wise, tolerant, and heroic leader who eventually conquered the Roman Empire and an area larger than the Arabian peninsula.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Or look at Adolph Hitler. He was a complete underdog, a nobody, involved in a tiny political party with no power, and eventually arrested and thrown in jail. His arguments and teachings, as despicable as they were, also persuaded millions of people and converted them to his Nazi ideology, and again created an empire much larger than Muhammad's. It fizzled out and died, of course, but so did Muhammad's empire, eventually.

Or, look at Gandhi. He also persuaded millions with his teachings, amassed a huge following from nothing and defeated the British empire, gaining independence for India, a nation larger in both population and land mass than Arabia. And he did it without using violence. Muhammad wasn't able to accomplish his goals without using violence.