One Undeniable Proof of the Qur'an

[Caladan]

Genghis Khan, Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, to name only three.

One difference, is that these man conquered the known world, Muhammad battled local tribes in Arabia.

 

[control.to.win]

One difference, is that these man conquered the known world, Muhammad battled local tribes in Arabia.

Again, everyone seems to be purposefully ignoring the point I have continually been making, that the greatness of this event was NOT in the SIZE of the Conquest. It was that it was a PROPHECY, from a man who claimed to be a prophet, claiming his success and defeat of his enemies in a time of utter helplessness, which occured as he predicted.

Did any of these other men, Gengis Khan, Julius Caesar, Hitler, Gandhi, or any other, EVER make such a claim in the time of their movement's infancy that God had revealed to him the outcome of their campaigns, and announce these claims to all their enemies? Which was then fulfilled as he had said so many years before? Since none of them did, they do not qualify to be compared to this great prophecy of the Holy Prophet.

There was one post about Julian as well. The top paragraph applies to him as well, as well as the fact that he was of royal blood, and treated as such from early childhood, enjoying a high level of education and eventually being reintegrated into the royal family hierarchy. Regardless, none of these people can be seen to compare to this prophecy.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Any man who sets out to conquer believes they will do so.
Saying "I will win, it is the will of God/the gods!" is not a prophesy, it is a belief of all conquerors.

 

[control.to.win]

There was a question as to why the Islamic conquest eventually stopped if the prophet was true. Although everyone who did oppose The Prophet in his life, be it people or empires, were conquered eventually, which proves the the prophecy.

If you read Islamic history, as long as the Islamic empire was not threatened, they did not attack. Case in point is the kingdom of Abyssinia.

On the other hand, the Prophet had, on many occasions, prophesied the rise and fall of Islam, and declared that his people would, like every other people before them, eventually fall into decline. But only after the truth of Islam had shone forth.
The fall of the Islamic empire, or the reason for the wars it entailed, is a lengthy Historical subject, not the subject of this prophecy, nor it's clear fulfillment in the life of the prophet.

 

[control.to.win]

Any man who sets out to conquer believes they will do so.
Saying "I will win, it is the will of God/the gods!" is not a prophesy, it is a belief of all conquerors.

I'm sorry. You are grasping at straws here without providing a shred of evidence to back up your beliefs. Give historical references that match the claims of the prophet for whomever you are referring to for it to be a valid point.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Any man who sets out to conquer believes they will do so.
Saying "I will win, it is the will of God/the gods!" is not a prophesy, it is a belief of all conquerors.

I'm sorry. You are grasping at straws here without providing a shred of evidence to back up your beliefs. Give historical references that match the claims of the prophet for whomever you are referring to for it to be a valid point.

Are you asserting that men set out to conquer with the belief they will fail?
I am sure there are some who do, but we never hear about them, they are usually defeated miserably.
The simple truth is, saying that you will win, because it is the will of God, gives you a 50/50 chance of self fulfilling your own prophesy.

 

[control.to.win]

Are you asserting that men set out to conquer with the belief they will fail?
I am sure there are some who do, but we never hear about them, they are usually defeated miserably.
The simple truth is, saying that you will win, because it is the will of God, gives you a 50/50 chance of self fulfilling your own prophesy.

Not just saying it's the will of God. That is quite ambiguous, and subject to much interpretation in and of itself. Saying that God has verbally revealed to me my victory and the defeat of all my current enemies, who are in power now while I am utterly weak, and making known these prophecies at that time. And then actually being able to do it,
is like night and day between the holy prophet and any other conqueror.

you speak of percentages, yet there is no other occurence outside of the Holy Prophet and other prophets of having made this claim. The simple truth is people in their situation, acting as they did in the face of such authority, should have been wiped out. Yet they were not.

 

[McBell]

Not just saying it's the will of God. That is quite ambiguous, and subject to much interpretation in and of itself. Saying that God has verbally revealed to me my victory and the defeat of all my current enemies, who are in power now while I am utterly weak, and making known these prophecies at that time. And then actually being able to do it,
is like night and day between the holy prophet and any other conqueror.

you speak of percentages, yet there is no other occurence outside of the Holy Prophet and other prophets of having made this claim. The simple truth is people in their situation, acting as they did in the face of such authority, should have been wiped out. Yet they were not.

Still waiting for a reply to post #30.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Did any of these other men, Gengis Khan, Julius Caesar, Hitler, Gandhi, or any other, EVER make such a claim in the time of their movement's infancy that God had revealed to him the outcome of their campaigns, and announce these claims to all their enemies?

Martin Luther King, Jr. predicted that one day in the U.S., black children and white children would play together and that his own children would be judged by their character instead of their skin. He announced these predictions to his enemies, who later assassinated him. He made these predictions at a time when there was racial segregation, the Ku Klux Klan and other racists were murdering blacks and civil rights activists, Dr. King had been repeatedly thrown in jail, spat on, attacked, and so on. The racists eventually murdered Dr. King. But his prediction came true, racial segregation was outlawed, civil rights laws were passed, and now we have a black president.

And, Dr. King persuaded and converted a larger country than Arabia. And, Dr. King accomplished his "conquest" using peaceful means, something Muhammad was clearly unable to do.

 

[McBell]

Martin Luther King, Jr. predicted that one day in the U.S., black children and white children would play together and that his own children would be judged by their character instead of their skin. He announced these predictions to his enemies, who later assassinated him. He made these predictions at a time when there was racial segregation, the Ku Klux Klan and other racists were murdering blacks and civil rights activists, Dr. King had been repeatedly thrown in jail, spat on, attacked, and so on. The racists eventually murdered Dr. King. But his prediction came true, racial segregation was outlawed, civil rights laws were passed, and now we have a black president.

And, Dr. King persuaded and converted a larger country than Arabia. And, Dr. King accomplished his "conquest" using peaceful means, something Muhammad was clearly unable to do.

Well, that does not count because his name was not Mohammad...

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

There is one proof of the Holy Qur'an that cannot be dismissed. And it is is as follows:

A man, from the sandhills of Arabia, one of the most ignorant areas of the world at the time, declares that he is a Prophet of God. He is unlettered and has never formally been taught anything. His first order of business is to tell the world that he is a prophet from God, and that there is only one God. And all polytheists are false. Not only that, he declares the Jews and Christians to be false as well.

In one fell swoop, he has turned the entire world against him. The idolators declare he should be killed, the Jews and Christians declare him a heretic. Friends turn to foes. And he his left alone with only a handful of followers. He declares not only that everyone else is false in their beliefs, but that they are faithless, hellbound if they don't reform, ignorant, and their fathers of old were also as ignorant as they are.
Instead of building relations, he is breaking every avenue of his worldly success.

He then declares that God has promised him victory over all his opponents. He dumbfounds all philosophers and clergymen with undeniable arguments from the revelation he is given. He declares that the kings of the world will be conquered when they oppose his message. So, 1 man vs. the entire known world. He sticks to his message, and changes not one iota to reform to the beliefs of the society. He declares that God will grant him all prominence and grandeur, and that all his enemies will be humiliated.

And the crazy thing is, that it happens. It's like someone from the middle of the Amazon jungle, not having one day of schooling, declaring that he will conquer the U.S and Russia, that his greatness will be shown to the world and everyone else humiliated and he somehow manages it. And he declares all this when he has not even enough followers to count on the tips of his fingers.

This is the beauty of Prophecy in the Qur'an. Other scriptures only describe things like earthquakes and pestilence will happen, which anyone can predict. But who can predict their own victory and the humiliation of all their opposers within their own lifetime? And that such a thing also comes true?

At the very least, it demands that any serious seeker of truth look into the rest of the claims of the holy Qur'an. In regards to prophecy, there doesn't seem to be any grander sort of prophecy that can be shown by God in support of a prophet of his.

You're right. I've been in denial. The truth is all too clear. Praise Allah!

 

[EtuMalku]

This proselytizing Muslim doesn't represent all of Islam's adherents, I hope?
Nothing but war mongering statements from the religion of Peace? Say it isn't so!

Here are the many phrases pulled from just about every post by control.to.win
Is THIS what the Muslim religion is all about?
I for one am sick and tired of hearing these statements, it is base and ignorant thinking and has no place in the modern World.

-He then declares that God has promised him victory over all his opponents.

-He declares that the kings of the world will be conquered when they oppose his message. So, 1 man vs. the entire known world.

-that his greatness will be shown to the world and everyone else humiliated

-But who can predict their own victory and the humiliation of all their opposers within their own lifetime?

-It is not merely the fact that Islam was victorious over all it's enemies.

-declares that the Prophet will be victorious, the disbelievers will be completely routed, and all those who oppose Islam (militarily) will be overcome.

-That not only would they be victorious over their opposers, but their opposers would also be destroyed or join him.

-of predicting the same about his own message (convincing victory) and utter defeat of all those who are opposing him.

-The greatness of his victory and defeat of all his enemies was in the fact that he prophecised it

-claiming his success and defeat of his enemies in a time of utter helplessness,

-the Islamic conquest

-God has verbally revealed to me my victory and the defeat of all my current enemies,

 

[Kerr]

Your point is valid in saying that there are "rags to riches" stories that exist in history. But this is not applicable to the prophecy of Muhammad.

Again, read my earlier post. The greatness of his victory and defeat of all his enemies was in the fact that he prophecised it, when he was utterly alone and without any political support, and preaching a doctrine utterly opposed to all those in power at that time. If a regular man could do this without any divine support, then surely there would be examples of others (con-men) doing the same. Yet we find no one else.

It is in my assessment more likely he took a chance or believed he knew what would happen. Do not really think it was an actual prophecy.

There was a sort-of prophecy involved with Djingis Khan. According to some sources he was born with a blood cloth in his hand, which appearently predicted he would be a great leader or that death would follow him or something. In any case it turned out to be true.

 

[kai]

"The night before the consummation of their marriage, she dreamed that a thunderbolt fell upon her body, which kindled a great fire, whose divided flames dispersed themselves all about, and then were extinguished. And Philip, some time after he was married, dreamed that he sealed up his wife's body with a seal, whose impression, as he fancied, was the figure of a lion. Some of the diviners interpreted this as a warning to Philip to look narrowly to his wife; but Aristander of Telmessus, considering how unusual it was to seal up anything that was empty, assured him the meaning of his dream was that the queen was with child of a boy, who would one day prove as stout and courageous as a lion."

Alexander the Great - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Green Kepi]

This proselytizing Muslim doesn't represent all of Islam's adherents, I hope?
Nothing but war mongering statements from the religion of Peace? Say it isn't so!

Here are the many phrases pulled from just about every post by control.to.win
Is THIS what the Muslim religion is all about?
I for one am sick and tired of hearing these statements, it is base and ignorant thinking and has no place in the modern World.

You 'pegged' it! This is what it is all about in a "nutshell"...! Great rational....

 

[control.to.win]

Martin Luther King, Jr. predicted that one day in the U.S., black children and white children would play together and that his own children would be judged by their character instead of their skin. He announced these predictions to his enemies, who later assassinated him. He made these predictions at a time when there was racial segregation, the Ku Klux Klan and other racists were murdering blacks and civil rights activists, Dr. King had been repeatedly thrown in jail, spat on, attacked, and so on. The racists eventually murdered Dr. King. But his prediction came true, racial segregation was outlawed, civil rights laws were passed, and now we have a black president.

And, Dr. King persuaded and converted a larger country than Arabia. And, Dr. King accomplished his "conquest" using peaceful means, something Muhammad was clearly unable to do.

Again, Dr. King, great as he was, does not measure up to this prophecy either. A highly educated man, he was a pastor and was never alone in his beliefs. There were always others, even before him, who shared his views and jumped to help him. He also never made any declaration from the very get-go of his campaign that I will be victorious, and all my enemies will be utterly humiliated. He was an activist, and worked to that end. He also did not have an overwhelmingly obvious victory in his own lifetime in line with his claims.

I am always astounded when people claim that Muhammad (saw) spread his ideology through war. Especially in this age when terrorism has been a hot topic, you would think someone using this forum would have had the decency to research the topic before saying something like this....If you want a serious answer, start another thread.

 

[PolyHedral]

He also never made any declaration from the very get-go of his campaign that I will be victorious, and all my enemies will be utterly humiliated.

Such a declaration is made implicitly. You don't begin a campaign you think you'll lose.

 

[Caladan]

Again, everyone seems to be purposefully ignoring the point I have continually been making, that the greatness of this event was NOT in the SIZE of the Conquest. It was that it was a PROPHECY, from a man who claimed to be a prophet, claiming his success and defeat of his enemies in a time of utter helplessness, which occured as he predicted.

Did any of these other men, Gengis Khan, Julius Caesar, Hitler, Gandhi, or any other, EVER make such a claim in the time of their movement's infancy that God had revealed to him the outcome of their campaigns, and announce these claims to all their enemies? Which was then fulfilled as he had said so many years before? Since none of them did, they do not qualify to be compared to this great prophecy of the Holy Prophet.

I suppose they were not as delusional. there is no greatness in self fulfilling prophecies or conquests through religious zeal.
BTW, you are also wrong. individuals such as Alexander the Great and perhaps even Julious Caesar had a divine personality cult around them, they believed they were divinely destined to rule the world. these men did not fight Arab tribes in what is today Saudi Arabia, they fought strong and disciplined armies and vast empires. although after the death of Muhammad and through the centuries Islam became a vast cultural phenomena, Muhammad's life pale in comparison to some of these men.
Its a shame you have to get out the realistic and negative side out of us, as by any normal standards I wouldn't feel the need to downplay the historical intensity of early Islam, which is interesting in itself, the only problem is when superstitious people bring dogma into it, it stops becoming fascinating and it turns to the absurd and grotesque. if you wish to believe that the period in 7th century Arabia was the most glorious time of events in the history of humanity, by all means, just don't expect the rest of us to get the same hard on.

 

[Cypress]

A man, from the sandhills of Arabia, one of the most ignorant areas of the world at the time, declares that he is a Prophet of God. He is unlettered and has never formally been taught anything.

Wasn't he a sucessful tradesman ohn behalf of his first wife?
How would that be possible without the ability to read & write?

He dumbfounds all philosophers and clergymen with undeniable arguments from the revelation he is given.

I wonder if there were any philosphers or clergyman in the sanhills of Arabia at that time.
If there were, it is more plausible that Muhammed lend from what he heared from them.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Again, Dr. King, great as he was, does not measure up to this prophecy either. A highly educated man, he was a pastor and was never alone in his beliefs.

That's true, he did educate himself and excel, in spite of the racist opposition in the society he was raised in.

Let me break down your basic argument and explain my basic objection to it. You are basically saying:

Premise: No one in history accomplished exactly what Muhammad accomplished.
--therefore--
Conclusion: It was a miracle.
​

Now, I'm not disputing that Muhammad accomplished very impressive feats, which no one else in history quite accomplished. You're right about that.

All I'm saying is, there have been many rare figures in history, who accomplished their particular set of impressive feats. You have simply chosen, arbitrarily, that one particular set of accomplishments (Muhammad's accomplishments -- creating a religion, prophesying victory, and conquering a relatively small part of the globe) are so impressive as to be miraculous. You have also decided, arbitrarily, that many different, equally impressive and equally unique feats (e.g. those of Julian, Alexander, Gandhi, MLK, etc.) are not impressive enough to be miraculous.

So, your argument rests on your personal opinion about how impressive were the accomplishments of various figures in history. Your argument only works if other people share your particular tastes and opinions about what impresses you.

If we leave aside personal opinions, and simply follow your logic, we would be lead to believe there have been many miracles in history. For example, I can't think of anyone else in history who accomplished what Nelson Mandela accomplished. Mandela was imprisoned for 27 years. His entire race was considered inferior and oppressed by apartheid. Yet, he lead a movement to defeat apartheid and "conquer" a nation of 50 million people. And he accomplished this and defeated his enemies without violence. No one else ever did that, not even Muhammad. I think it's fair to say these were impressive accomplishments, unique to Mandela. So, using your logic:

Premise: No one in history accomplished exactly what Nelson Mandela accomplished.
--therefore--
Conclusion: It was a miracle.
​

So that's my basic problem with your argument, is that it ultimately rests on your personal opinion. When I make a mental list of the accomplishments of various figures in history, and the odds they faced, there are many who faced unique odds and accomplished unique things. This includes Muhammad. I simply do not share your personal opinion that Muhammad comes out as a clear #1 above every other unique figure in history, and your argument only works if people share that subjective opinion.

Now to respond to the rest:

There were always others, even before him, who shared his views and jumped to help him.

True. Unlike Dr. King, it could be said Muhammad was the first one to preach his beliefs. But, the period when there were no others who shared his views and no one to help him didn't last long for Muhammad. He quickly gained a following in Mecca, and the invitation and friendliness of the tribes of Medina was also crucial to his success. Wouldn't you agree that the most severe opposition Muhammad faced occurred after he already had a following, not when he was alone?

I'm not saying Muhammad didn't face unique disadvantages. What I'm saying is, we could make a list of the disadvantages people faced, and both Muhammad and others faced very severe, and unique, disadvantages.

For example, Muhammad didn't have to face some of the disadvantages Dr. King and Mandela faced. They were identified on sight as an inferior race, oppressed and segregated by the government and the populace. Muhammad and his followers had the advantage that they were not ethnically distinguishable from everyone else, and they were not considered to be sub-human. Also, Muhammad did not have to face decades in prison, like Mandela, and both Dr. King and Mandela never had the advantage of being at the head of an army. In fact, Dr. King had the most severe disadvantage of being committed to, and declaring to his enemies, that he would not use violence, instead he trusted completely in the grace of God to protect him. In the face of violent persecution, that was a very severe and noble disadvantage which Muhammad, quite understandably, chose not to impose on himself.

He also never made any declaration from the very get-go of his campaign that I will be victorious, and all my enemies will be utterly humiliated.

Well, not in those words, certainly. MLK wouldn't say "my enemies will be humiliated" because he was a man of peace, not the general of armed Arabian tribes. Furthermore, MLK and his followers wouldn't have the audacity or arrogance to claim that MLK's predictions were divine prophecies. And of course, MLK's remembered words are constrained by recent memory and modern recording technologies, whereas Muhammad's words come transmitted to us from the [edit: 7th] century, after passing through the hands of tribal leaders and self-interested caliphs.

On the other hand, MLK did make some uncanny predictions with all the religious fervor and confidence of a persecuted prophet:

We don't need bricks and bottles, we don't need any Molotov cocktails, we need to go around to these stores, and to these massive industries in our country, and say, "God sent us by here, to say to you that you're not treating his children right. And we've come by here ask you to make the first item on your agenda -- fair treatment where God's children are concerned. .." We've got some difficult days ahead. But it doesn't matter with me now. Because I’ve been to the mountaintop. And I don't mind. Like anybody, I would like to live a long life. Longevity has its place. But I'm not concerned about that now. I just want to do God's will. And He’s allowed me to go up to the mountain. And I've looked over. And I've seen the promised land. I may not get there with you. But I want you to know tonight, that we, as a people will get to the promised land. And I'm happy, tonight. I'm not worried about a thing. I'm not fearing any man. Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord.
​

~Martin Luther King, Jr., speaking on April 3, 1968.

MLK was assassinated the day after delivering that sermon.

He was an activist, and worked to that end. He also did not have an overwhelmingly obvious victory in his own lifetime in line with his claims.

He did have overwhelming obvious victories in his own lifetime, such as Montgomery Bus Boycott - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Other major victories include The Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, and desegregation. Also, you have arbitrarily decided that victories won after his death don't count. If we remove this arbitrary restriction and include his legacy after his death, which is only fair since the man gave his life at an early age, he won over millions of formerly racist whites to his side. There may even be as many people all over the world who revere Dr. King's legacy as those who revere Muhammad's.

Certainly MLK didn't win any battles between armies, because unlike Muhammad he used nonviolence and relied solely on his faith in God and his remarkable powers of persuasion. Some people think that a victory won by violence is no victory at all.

I am always astounded when people claim that Muhammad (saw) spread his ideology through war. Especially in this age when terrorism has been a hot topic, you would think someone using this forum would have had the decency to research the topic before saying something like this....If you want a serious answer, start another thread.

I'm not saying Muhammad necessarily tried to spread his ideology through war. What I am saying is that Muhammad did wage war, and triumphs in war always assist, rather than hinder, the spread of an ideology. In Muhammad's case, this ideology extended no further than the tribes of Arabia in his lifetime.

Gibbon, who both praises and criticizes Muhammad, writes:

"The fair option of friendship or submission or battle was proposed to the enemies of Muhammad. If they professed the creed of Islam, they were admitted to all the temporal and spiritual benefits of his primitive disciples, and marched under the same banner to extend the religion which they had embraced. ... The Arab continued to unite the professions of a merchant and a robber; and his petty excursions for the defense or the attack of a caravan insensibly prepared his troops for the conquest of Arabia. The distribution of the spoil was regulated by a divine law: the whole was faithfully collected in one common mass .... From all sides the roving Arabs were allured to the standard of religion and plunder: the apostle sanctified the license of embracing the female captives as their wives or concubines, and the enjoyment of wealth and beauty was a feeble type of the joys of paradise prepared for the valiant martyrs of the faith. "The sword," says Mohammad, "is the key of heaven and of hell; a drop of blood shed in the cause of God ... is of more avail than two months of fasting or prayer."
​

The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Edward Gibbon, [emphasis added]