Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Let me see if I can distill my answer into a singularly understandable response that will be as easy to read as it is to remember:
No.
You can quote me on that.
Next question?
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One world religion?
- Thread starter Syzygy
- Start date
No.
You can quote me on that.
Next question?
Metempsychosis
Reincarnation of 'Anti-religion'
Problem with Bahai i think is that it reconciles itself with different prophets and could "not" reconcile different idealogies.Greetings!
As a Baha'i, I see one world religion as not only possible, but inevitable!
(To quote Shakespeare, "'Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished!")
And I suspect it would probably look a lot like the Baha'i Faith itself does.
We Baha'is recognize ALL the great religions as legitimate and of God, recognize scriptures of other religions, and accept/use prayers from many different sources. (Indeed, our scriptures state explicitly that most religions are of God, excepting only a few born of human perversity....)
In addition to recognizing other scriptures, we have about 200 volumes of our own, Baha'i scripture!
And we avoid rituals (there are five--and only five--in the Faith), and shun partisan politics like the plague it is! Our goal is UNITY (of God, of humanity, and of religions), and politics is merely a divide-and-conquer process, entirely the opposite of consensus....
So as a current ad says, "The future is now!"
Best,
Bruce
For example,Bahai believes in heaven or hell,and does not mention reincarnation,this makes it skewed towards abrahamic faiths.What ur take on this.
My thought is that
"Bahai could not reconcile between Heaven\hell concept and Reincarnation"
enchanted_one1975
Resident Lycanthrope
It would never happen. People may be able to put on a false face to be politically correct on many issues. Those that actually care about their religion cannot though. Personally I would rather be burned alive at the stake while holding my beliefs than to live a long life lying about them. I will worship my Gods and Goddesses in the manner that I see fit only.
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
Greetings! 
So sorry, but IME it reconciles them quite nicely!
It isn't "skewed"; it IS Abrahamic as both of its Founders were descendants of Abraham!
And you couldn't be more wrong about reincarnation, as I'll demonstrate shortly!
You're welcome to your thought, but it's simlpy mistaken!
Heaven and hell are covered very thoroughly, but I'll reserve that for another time.
I quote from the Baha'i scriptures below.
Peace,
Bruce
_ _ _ _ _
CHAPTER 81
Question. - What is the truth of the question of reincarnation, which is believed by some people?
Answer. - The object of what we are about to say is to explain the reality - not to deride the beliefs of other people; it is only to explain the facts; that is all. We do not oppose anyone's ideas, nor do we approve of criticism.
Know, then, that those who believe in reincarnation are of two classes: one class does not believe in the spiritual punishments and rewards of the other world, and they suppose that man by reincarnation and return to this world gains rewards and recompenses; they consider heaven and hell to be restricted to this world and do not speak of the existence of the other world. Among these there are two further divisions. One division thinks that man sometimes returns to this world in the form of an animal in order to undergo severe punishment and that, after enduring this painful torment, he will be released from the animal world and will come again into the human world; this is called transmigration. The other division thinks that from the human world one again returns to the human world, and that by this return rewards and punishments for a former life are obtained; this is called reincarnation. Neither of these classes speak of any other world besides this one.
The second sort of believers in reincarnation affirm the existence of the other world, and they consider reincarnation the means of becoming perfect - that is, they think that man, by going from and coming again to this world, will gradually acquire perfections, until he reaches the inmost perfection. In other words, that men are composed of matter and force: matter in the beginning - that is to say, in the first cycle - is imperfect, but on coming repeatedly to this world it progresses and acquires refinement and delicacy, until it becomes like a polished mirror; and force, which is no other than spirit, is realized in it with all the perfections.
This is the presentation of the subject by those who believe in reincarnation and transmigration. We have condensed it; if we entered into the details, it would take much time. This summary is sufficient. No logical arguments and proofs of this question are brought forward; they are only suppositions and inferences from conjectures, and not conclusive arguments. Proofs must be asked for from the believers in reincarnation, and not conjectures, suppositions and imaginations.
But you have asked for arguments of the impossibility of reincarnation. This is what we must now explain. The first argument for its impossibility is that the outward is the expression of the inward; the earth is the mirror of the Kingdom; the material world corresponds to the spiritual world. Now observe that in the sensible world appearances are not repeated, for no being in any respect is identical with, nor the same as, another being. The sign of singleness is visible and apparent in all things. If all the granaries of the world were full of grain, you would not find two grains absolutely alike, the same and identical without any distinction. It is certain that there will be differences and distinctions between them. As the proof of uniqueness exists in all things, and the Oneness and Unity of God is apparent in the reality of all things, the repetition of the same appearance is absolutely impossible. Therefore, reincarnation, which is the repeated appearance of the same spirit with its former essence and condition in this same world of appearance, is impossible and unrealizable. As the repetition of the same appearance is impossible and interdicted for each of the material beings, so for spiritual beings also, a return to the same condition, whether in the arc of descent or in the arc of ascent, is interdicted and impossible, for the material corresponds to the spiritual.
Nevertheless, the return of material beings with regard to species is evident; so the trees which during former years brought forth leaves, blossoms and fruits in the coming years will bring forth exactly the same leaves, blossoms and fruits. This is called the repetition of species. If anyone makes an objection saying that the leaf, the blossom and the fruit have been decomposed, and have descended from the vegetable world to the mineral world, and again have come back from the mineral world to the vegetable world, and, therefore, there has been a repetition - the answer is that the blossom, the leaf and the fruit of last year were decomposed, and these combined elements were disintegrated and were dispersed in space, and that the particles of the leaf and fruit of last year, after decomposition, have not again become combined, and have not returned. On the contrary, by the composition of new elements, the species has returned. It is the same with the human body, which after decomposition becomes disintegrated, and the elements which composed it are dispersed. If, in like manner, this body should again return from the mineral or vegetable world, it would not have exactly the same composition of elements as the former man. Those elements have been decomposed and dispersed; they are dissipated in this vast space. Afterward, other particles of elements have been combined, and a second body has been formed; it may be that one of the particles of the former individual has entered into the composition of the succeeding individual, but these particles have not been conserved and kept, exactly and completely, without addition or diminution, so that they may be combined again, and from that composition and mingling another individual may come into existence. So it cannot be proved that this body with all its particles has returned; that the former man has become the latter; and that, consequently, there has been repetition; that the spirit also, like the body, has returned; and that after death its essence has come back to this world.
If we say that this reincarnation is for acquiring perfections so that matter may become refined and delicate, and that the light of the spirit may be manifest in it with the greatest perfection, this also is mere imagination. For, even supposing we believe in this argument, still change of nature is impossible through renewal and return. The essence of imperfection, by returning, does not become the reality of perfection; complete darkness, by returning, does not become the source of light; the essence of weakness is not transformed into power and might by returning, and an earthly nature does not become a heavenly reality. The tree of Zaqqum,(1) no matter how frequently it may come back, will not bring forth sweet fruit, and the good tree, no matter how often it may return, will not bear a bitter fruit. Therefore, it is evident that returning and coming back to the material world does not become the cause of perfection. This theory has no proofs nor evidences; it is simply an idea. No, in reality the cause of acquiring perfections is the bounty of God.
[continues]
So sorry, but IME it reconciles them quite nicely!
It isn't "skewed"; it IS Abrahamic as both of its Founders were descendants of Abraham!
And you couldn't be more wrong about reincarnation, as I'll demonstrate shortly!
You're welcome to your thought, but it's simlpy mistaken!
Heaven and hell are covered very thoroughly, but I'll reserve that for another time.
I quote from the Baha'i scriptures below.
Peace,
Bruce
_ _ _ _ _
CHAPTER 81
Question. - What is the truth of the question of reincarnation, which is believed by some people?
Answer. - The object of what we are about to say is to explain the reality - not to deride the beliefs of other people; it is only to explain the facts; that is all. We do not oppose anyone's ideas, nor do we approve of criticism.
Know, then, that those who believe in reincarnation are of two classes: one class does not believe in the spiritual punishments and rewards of the other world, and they suppose that man by reincarnation and return to this world gains rewards and recompenses; they consider heaven and hell to be restricted to this world and do not speak of the existence of the other world. Among these there are two further divisions. One division thinks that man sometimes returns to this world in the form of an animal in order to undergo severe punishment and that, after enduring this painful torment, he will be released from the animal world and will come again into the human world; this is called transmigration. The other division thinks that from the human world one again returns to the human world, and that by this return rewards and punishments for a former life are obtained; this is called reincarnation. Neither of these classes speak of any other world besides this one.
The second sort of believers in reincarnation affirm the existence of the other world, and they consider reincarnation the means of becoming perfect - that is, they think that man, by going from and coming again to this world, will gradually acquire perfections, until he reaches the inmost perfection. In other words, that men are composed of matter and force: matter in the beginning - that is to say, in the first cycle - is imperfect, but on coming repeatedly to this world it progresses and acquires refinement and delicacy, until it becomes like a polished mirror; and force, which is no other than spirit, is realized in it with all the perfections.
This is the presentation of the subject by those who believe in reincarnation and transmigration. We have condensed it; if we entered into the details, it would take much time. This summary is sufficient. No logical arguments and proofs of this question are brought forward; they are only suppositions and inferences from conjectures, and not conclusive arguments. Proofs must be asked for from the believers in reincarnation, and not conjectures, suppositions and imaginations.
But you have asked for arguments of the impossibility of reincarnation. This is what we must now explain. The first argument for its impossibility is that the outward is the expression of the inward; the earth is the mirror of the Kingdom; the material world corresponds to the spiritual world. Now observe that in the sensible world appearances are not repeated, for no being in any respect is identical with, nor the same as, another being. The sign of singleness is visible and apparent in all things. If all the granaries of the world were full of grain, you would not find two grains absolutely alike, the same and identical without any distinction. It is certain that there will be differences and distinctions between them. As the proof of uniqueness exists in all things, and the Oneness and Unity of God is apparent in the reality of all things, the repetition of the same appearance is absolutely impossible. Therefore, reincarnation, which is the repeated appearance of the same spirit with its former essence and condition in this same world of appearance, is impossible and unrealizable. As the repetition of the same appearance is impossible and interdicted for each of the material beings, so for spiritual beings also, a return to the same condition, whether in the arc of descent or in the arc of ascent, is interdicted and impossible, for the material corresponds to the spiritual.
Nevertheless, the return of material beings with regard to species is evident; so the trees which during former years brought forth leaves, blossoms and fruits in the coming years will bring forth exactly the same leaves, blossoms and fruits. This is called the repetition of species. If anyone makes an objection saying that the leaf, the blossom and the fruit have been decomposed, and have descended from the vegetable world to the mineral world, and again have come back from the mineral world to the vegetable world, and, therefore, there has been a repetition - the answer is that the blossom, the leaf and the fruit of last year were decomposed, and these combined elements were disintegrated and were dispersed in space, and that the particles of the leaf and fruit of last year, after decomposition, have not again become combined, and have not returned. On the contrary, by the composition of new elements, the species has returned. It is the same with the human body, which after decomposition becomes disintegrated, and the elements which composed it are dispersed. If, in like manner, this body should again return from the mineral or vegetable world, it would not have exactly the same composition of elements as the former man. Those elements have been decomposed and dispersed; they are dissipated in this vast space. Afterward, other particles of elements have been combined, and a second body has been formed; it may be that one of the particles of the former individual has entered into the composition of the succeeding individual, but these particles have not been conserved and kept, exactly and completely, without addition or diminution, so that they may be combined again, and from that composition and mingling another individual may come into existence. So it cannot be proved that this body with all its particles has returned; that the former man has become the latter; and that, consequently, there has been repetition; that the spirit also, like the body, has returned; and that after death its essence has come back to this world.
If we say that this reincarnation is for acquiring perfections so that matter may become refined and delicate, and that the light of the spirit may be manifest in it with the greatest perfection, this also is mere imagination. For, even supposing we believe in this argument, still change of nature is impossible through renewal and return. The essence of imperfection, by returning, does not become the reality of perfection; complete darkness, by returning, does not become the source of light; the essence of weakness is not transformed into power and might by returning, and an earthly nature does not become a heavenly reality. The tree of Zaqqum,(1) no matter how frequently it may come back, will not bring forth sweet fruit, and the good tree, no matter how often it may return, will not bear a bitter fruit. Therefore, it is evident that returning and coming back to the material world does not become the cause of perfection. This theory has no proofs nor evidences; it is simply an idea. No, in reality the cause of acquiring perfections is the bounty of God.
[continues]
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
[continued]
The Theosophists believe that man on the arc of ascent(2) will return many times until he reaches the Supreme Center; in that condition matter becomes a clear mirror, the light of the spirit will shine upon it with its full power, and essential perfection will be acquired. Now, this is an established and deep theological proposition, that the material worlds are terminated at the end of the arc of descent, and that the condition of man is at the end of the arc of descent, and at the beginning of the arc of ascent, which is opposite to the Supreme Center. Also, from the beginning to the end of the arc of ascent, there are numerous spiritual degrees. The arc of descent is called beginning,(3) and that of ascent is called progress.(4) The arc of descent ends in materialities, and the arc of ascent ends in spiritualities. The point of the compass in describing a circle makes no retrograde motion, for this would be contrary to the natural movement and the divine order; otherwise, the symmetry of the circle would be spoiled.
Moreover, this material world has not such value or such excellence that man, after having escaped from this cage, will desire a second time to fall into this snare. No, through the Eternal Bounty the worth and true ability of man becomes apparent and visible by traversing the degrees of existence, and not by returning. When the shell is once opened, it will be apparent and evident whether it contains a pearl or worthless matter. When once the plant has grown it will bring forth either thorns or flowers; there is no need for it to grow up again. Besides, advancing and moving in the worlds in a direct order according to the natural law is the cause of existence, and a movement contrary to the system and law of nature is the cause of nonexistence. The return of the soul after death is contrary to the natural movement, and opposed to the divine system.
Therefore, by returning, it is absolutely impossible to obtain existence; it is as if man, after being freed from the womb, should return to it a second time. Consider what a puerile imagination this is which is implied by the belief in reincarnation and transmigration. Believers in it consider the body as a vessel in which the spirit is contained, as water is contained in a cup; this water has been taken from one cup and poured into another. This is child's play. They do not realize that the spirit is an incorporeal being, and does not enter and come forth, but is only connected with the body as the sun is with the mirror. If it were thus, and the spirit by returning to this material world could pass through the degrees and attain to essential perfection, it would be better if God prolonged the life of the spirit in the material world until it had acquired perfections and graces; it then would not be necessary for it to taste of the cup of death, or to acquire a second life.
The idea that existence is restricted to this perishable world, and the denial of the existence of divine worlds, originally proceeded from the imaginations of certain believers in reincarnation; but the divine worlds are infinite. If the divine worlds culminated in this material world, creation would be futile: nay, existence would be pure child's play. The result of these endless beings, which is the noble existence of man, would come and go for a few days in this perishable dwelling, and after receiving punishments and rewards, at last all would become perfect. The divine creation and the infinite existing beings would be perfected and completed, and then the Divinity of the Lord, and the names and qualities of God, on behalf of these spiritual beings, would, as regards their effect, result in laziness and inaction! "Glory to thy Lord, the Lord Who is sanctified from all their descriptions."(5)
Such were the limited minds of the former philosophers, like Ptolemy and the others who believed and imagined that the world, life and existence were restricted to this terrestrial globe, and that this boundless space was confined within the nine spheres of heaven, and that all were empty and void. Consider how greatly their thoughts were limited and how weak their minds. Those who believe in reincarnation think that the spiritual worlds are restricted to the worlds of human imagination. Moreover, some of them, like the Druzes and the Nusayris, think that existence is restricted to this physical world. What an ignorant supposition! For in this universe of God, which appears in the most complete perfection, beauty and grandeur, the luminous stars of the material universe are innumerable! Then we must reflect how limitless and infinite are the spiritual worlds, which are the essential foundation. "Take heed ye who are endued with discernment."(6)
But let us return to our subject. In the Divine Scriptures and Holy Books "return" is spoken of, but the ignorant have not understood the meaning, and those who believed in reincarnation have made conjectures on the subject. For what the divine Prophets meant by "return" is not the return of the essence, but that of the qualities; it is not the return of the Manifestation, but that of the perfections. In the Gospel it says that John, the son of Zacharias, is Elias. These words do not mean the return of the rational soul and personality of Elias in the body of John, but rather that the perfections and qualities of Elias were manifested and appeared in John.
A lamp shone in this room last night, and when tonight another lamp shines, we say the light of last night is again shining. Water flows from a fountain; then it ceases; and when it begins to flow a second time, we say this water is the same water flowing again; or we say this light is identical with the former light. It is the same with the spring of last year, when blossoms, flowers and sweet-scented herbs bloomed, and delicious fruits were brought forth; next year we say that those delicious fruits have come back, and those blossoms, flowers and blooms have returned and come again. This does not mean that exactly the same particles composing the flowers of last year have, after decomposition, been again combined and have then come back and returned. On the contrary, the meaning is that the delicacy, freshness, delicious perfume and wonderful color of the flowers of last year are visible and apparent in exactly the same manner in the flowers of this year. Briefly, this expression refers only to the resemblance and likeness which exist between the former and latter flowers. The "return" which is mentioned in the Divine Scriptures is this: it is fully explained by the Supreme Pen(7) in the Kitab-i-Iqan [Book of Certitude]. Refer to it, so that you may be informed of the truth of the divine mysteries.
"Upon you be greetings and praise.
[Footnotes:]
1. The infernal tree mentioned in the Qurán.
2. i.e., of the Circle of Existence.
3. Lit., bringing forth.
4. Lit., producing something new.
5. Cf. Qurán 37:180.
6. Qurán 59:2.
7. Baháulláh [Founder of the Bahai Faith].
(Some Answered Questions, pp. 282-289)
Metempsychosis
Reincarnation of 'Anti-religion'
All right BruceDLimber,I have gone through your posts.It would be premature to post my reply.
Baha'i includes prophets like Krishna ,Buddha and we all know where the largest Baha'i population is.I know that Baha'i is essentially an abrahamic religion and hence we need a dharmic view.
I need more information:
1.What happens to soul after death.Heaven /Hell,where does it go.(I am assuming that the soul exista in bahai).
2.Is a belief enough to get to heaven or do we need good actions to enter it.
Wats the fate of atheists?
3.How long one stays there?Is Heaven/hell permanent?Wat abt pre-existence of souls.
Baha'i includes prophets like Krishna ,Buddha and we all know where the largest Baha'i population is.I know that Baha'i is essentially an abrahamic religion and hence we need a dharmic view.
I need more information:
1.What happens to soul after death.Heaven /Hell,where does it go.(I am assuming that the soul exista in bahai).
2.Is a belief enough to get to heaven or do we need good actions to enter it.
Wats the fate of atheists?
3.How long one stays there?Is Heaven/hell permanent?Wat abt pre-existence of souls.
Last edited by a moderator:
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
Greetings!
(I notice you don't acknowledge that your assertions were refuted, but the refutations speak for themselves!
Anyway, )
No, I don't know that "we all know" that! Anyway, most recently the largest group of Baha'is is in India (several million); previously Iran held that title because that's where the Faith started.
My pleasure!
For the record, the correct spelling is "Baha'i." "Baha" means "glory," and the suffix forms the adjective so that "Baha'i" means "of Glory." And the aspostrophe is important because it's the transliteration of a (silent) letter (a glottal stop) that alters the pronunciation.
The soul definitely exists, and is eternal!
Briefly, both are important.
As to atheists, please see below.
How long is addressed below.
Any pre-existence isn't particularly important because it's when we enter this life that the significant stuff begins.
OK. In general:
We all go to the same after life, so there's no distinction in that sense between an atheist, a Baha'i, or a person of any other religion!
Our purpose in this life is twofold:
After death, our initial condition (nearness/Heaven or remoteness/hell) will be a function of how well we've succeeded in gaining the aforementioned virtues.
The Baha'i scriptures assure us, however, that God, in His infinite Love and Mercy for us, will assist everyone--even those in the worst state of remoteness--eventually to draw near to Him (Heaven)!
I post several quotes from the Baha'i scriptures about the Next Life and then continue answering your questions in the next post.
_ _ _ _ _
“Thou hast asked Me whether man, as apart from the Prophets of God and His chosen ones, will retain, after his physical death, the self-same individuality, personality, consciousness, and understanding that characterize his life in this world. If this should be the case, how is it, thou hast observed, that whereas such slight injuries to his mental faculties as fainting and severe illness deprive him of his understanding and consciousness, his death, which must involve the decomposition of his body and the dissolution of its elements, is powerless to destroy that understanding and extinguish that consciousness? How can any one imagine that man's consciousness and personality will be maintained, when the very instruments necessary to their existence and function will have completely disintegrated?
“Know thou that the soul of man is exalted above, and is independent of all infirmities of body or mind. That a sick person showeth signs of weakness is due to the hindrances that interpose themselves between his soul and his body, for the soul itself remaineth unaffected by any bodily ailments. Consider the light of the lamp. Though an external object may interfere with its radiance, the light itself continueth to shine with undiminished power. In like manner, every malady afflicting the body of man is an impediment that preventeth the soul from manifesting its inherent might and power. When it leaveth the body, however, it will evince such ascendancy, and reveal such influence as no force on earth can equal. Every pure, every refined and sanctified soul will be endowed with tremendous power, and shall rejoice with exceeding gladness.”
-- (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, pp. 153-154)
“And now concerning thy question whether human souls continue to be conscious one of another after their separation from the body. Know thou that the souls of the people of Baha, who have entered and been established within the Crimson Ark, shall associate and commune intimately one with another, and shall be so closely associated in their lives, their aspirations, their aims and strivings as to be even as one soul. They are indeed the ones who are well-informed, who are keen-sighted, and who are endued with understanding. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.
“The people of Baha, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are, one and all, well aware of one another's state and condition, and are united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state, however, must depend upon their faith and their conduct. They that are of the same grade and station are fully aware of one another's capacity, character, accomplishments and merits. They that are of a lower grade, however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the station, or of estimating the merits, of those that rank above them. Each shall receive his share from thy Lord. Blessed is the man that hath turned his face towards God, and walked steadfastly in His love, until his soul hath winged its flight unto God, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Most Powerful, the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.
“The souls of the infidels, however, shall -- and to this I bear witness -- when breathing their last be made aware of the good things that have escaped them, and shall bemoan their plight, and shall humble themselves before God. They shall continue doing so after the separation of their souls from their bodies.
“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought.”
-- (Baha'u'llah, Ibid., pp. 169-171)
“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty. The movement of My Pen is stilled when it attempteth to befittingly describe the loftiness and glory of so exalted a station. The honor with which the Hand of Mercy will invest the soul is such as no tongue can adequately reveal, nor any other earthly agency describe. Blessed is the soul which, at the hour of its separation from the body, is sanctified from the vain imaginings of the peoples of the world. Such a soul liveth and moveth in accordance with the Will of its Creator, and entereth the all-highest Paradise. The Maids of Heaven, inmates of the loftiest mansions, will circle around it, and the Prophets of God and His chosen ones will seek its companionship. With them that soul will freely converse, and will recount unto them that which it hath been made to endure in the path of God, the Lord of all worlds. If any man be told that which hath been ordained for such a soul in the worlds of God, the Lord of the throne on high and of earth below, his whole being will instantly blaze out in his great longing to attain that most exalted, that sanctified and resplendent station.... The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men. The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High.”
-- (Baha'u'llah, Ibid., pp. 155-157)
(I notice you don't acknowledge that your assertions were refuted, but the refutations speak for themselves!
Anyway, )
No, I don't know that "we all know" that! Anyway, most recently the largest group of Baha'is is in India (several million); previously Iran held that title because that's where the Faith started.
My pleasure!
For the record, the correct spelling is "Baha'i." "Baha" means "glory," and the suffix forms the adjective so that "Baha'i" means "of Glory." And the aspostrophe is important because it's the transliteration of a (silent) letter (a glottal stop) that alters the pronunciation.
The soul definitely exists, and is eternal!
Briefly, both are important.
As to atheists, please see below.
How long is addressed below.
Any pre-existence isn't particularly important because it's when we enter this life that the significant stuff begins.
OK. In general:
We all go to the same after life, so there's no distinction in that sense between an atheist, a Baha'i, or a person of any other religion!
Our purpose in this life is twofold:
- as individuals, to gain the spiritual virtues we'll need both here and after death, and
- in aggregate, to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization.
After death, our initial condition (nearness/Heaven or remoteness/hell) will be a function of how well we've succeeded in gaining the aforementioned virtues.
The Baha'i scriptures assure us, however, that God, in His infinite Love and Mercy for us, will assist everyone--even those in the worst state of remoteness--eventually to draw near to Him (Heaven)!
I post several quotes from the Baha'i scriptures about the Next Life and then continue answering your questions in the next post.
_ _ _ _ _
“Thou hast asked Me whether man, as apart from the Prophets of God and His chosen ones, will retain, after his physical death, the self-same individuality, personality, consciousness, and understanding that characterize his life in this world. If this should be the case, how is it, thou hast observed, that whereas such slight injuries to his mental faculties as fainting and severe illness deprive him of his understanding and consciousness, his death, which must involve the decomposition of his body and the dissolution of its elements, is powerless to destroy that understanding and extinguish that consciousness? How can any one imagine that man's consciousness and personality will be maintained, when the very instruments necessary to their existence and function will have completely disintegrated?
“Know thou that the soul of man is exalted above, and is independent of all infirmities of body or mind. That a sick person showeth signs of weakness is due to the hindrances that interpose themselves between his soul and his body, for the soul itself remaineth unaffected by any bodily ailments. Consider the light of the lamp. Though an external object may interfere with its radiance, the light itself continueth to shine with undiminished power. In like manner, every malady afflicting the body of man is an impediment that preventeth the soul from manifesting its inherent might and power. When it leaveth the body, however, it will evince such ascendancy, and reveal such influence as no force on earth can equal. Every pure, every refined and sanctified soul will be endowed with tremendous power, and shall rejoice with exceeding gladness.”
-- (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, pp. 153-154)
“And now concerning thy question whether human souls continue to be conscious one of another after their separation from the body. Know thou that the souls of the people of Baha, who have entered and been established within the Crimson Ark, shall associate and commune intimately one with another, and shall be so closely associated in their lives, their aspirations, their aims and strivings as to be even as one soul. They are indeed the ones who are well-informed, who are keen-sighted, and who are endued with understanding. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.
“The people of Baha, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are, one and all, well aware of one another's state and condition, and are united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state, however, must depend upon their faith and their conduct. They that are of the same grade and station are fully aware of one another's capacity, character, accomplishments and merits. They that are of a lower grade, however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the station, or of estimating the merits, of those that rank above them. Each shall receive his share from thy Lord. Blessed is the man that hath turned his face towards God, and walked steadfastly in His love, until his soul hath winged its flight unto God, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Most Powerful, the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.
“The souls of the infidels, however, shall -- and to this I bear witness -- when breathing their last be made aware of the good things that have escaped them, and shall bemoan their plight, and shall humble themselves before God. They shall continue doing so after the separation of their souls from their bodies.
“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought.”
-- (Baha'u'llah, Ibid., pp. 169-171)
“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty. The movement of My Pen is stilled when it attempteth to befittingly describe the loftiness and glory of so exalted a station. The honor with which the Hand of Mercy will invest the soul is such as no tongue can adequately reveal, nor any other earthly agency describe. Blessed is the soul which, at the hour of its separation from the body, is sanctified from the vain imaginings of the peoples of the world. Such a soul liveth and moveth in accordance with the Will of its Creator, and entereth the all-highest Paradise. The Maids of Heaven, inmates of the loftiest mansions, will circle around it, and the Prophets of God and His chosen ones will seek its companionship. With them that soul will freely converse, and will recount unto them that which it hath been made to endure in the path of God, the Lord of all worlds. If any man be told that which hath been ordained for such a soul in the worlds of God, the Lord of the throne on high and of earth below, his whole being will instantly blaze out in his great longing to attain that most exalted, that sanctified and resplendent station.... The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men. The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High.”
-- (Baha'u'llah, Ibid., pp. 155-157)
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Metempsychosis
Reincarnation of 'Anti-religion'
Bahai differs from eastern philosophy .Clearly it foundation is based on abrahamic ones.Did Bahai, really produced a commentary on hindu/Jain/sikh scriptures?Did he produce a commentary on Upanishads or the Jewish Zohar?
It does not however reconcile with the reincarnation and eternal hell/heaven concept in abrahamic religions(mainly christinaity and Islam).But anyway its unique version of afterlife is good.
I now state some of the differences and how bahai fails to unite philosophies.
Bahai theory on eastern reincarnation
The major aspects of bahai where bahai differs is in material manifestation of spirit as the qualities improves.
It is known 'samsakaras" the scent of the soul.It is this "samsakaras" that are reincarnated.The self which is seen as seperate is in essence not seperated from the universal soul.The samsakaras take different bodies in different planes of existence(not just the visible planets,but it includes everythig including earth) to get itself corrected.This is the principle of reincarnation in traditional sense.
The transmigration of soul is an illusion and is at best a "definite" truth at least in relative standpoint .This is common point of all dharma. The subsequent material manifestations ,depends on the past actions.Bahai thinks the matter is perfected in traditional reincarnation.This is wrong.It is spirit and the impressions that are corrected ,through "rebirth".
My view is that any theory on afterlife is always unprovable,hence dogmaticizing and enforcing ones belief should be strictly avoided.I just put forward my side of argument.
"Know, then, that those who believe in reincarnation are of two classes: one class does not believe in the spiritual punishments and rewards of the other world, and they suppose that man by reincarnation and return to this world gains rewards and recompenses; they consider heaven and hell to be restricted to this world and do not speak of the existence of the other world. Among these there are two further divisions. One division thinks that man sometimes returns to this world in the form of an animal in order to undergo severe punishment and that, after enduring this painful torment, he will be released from the animal world and will come again into the human world; this is called transmigration. The other division thinks that from the human world one again returns to the human world, and that by this return rewards and punishments for a former life are obtained; this is called reincarnation. Neither of these classes speak of any other world besides this one."
---->This definitions are not exactly right.He probably influenced by druze rather than by dharmic religions.
"This is the presentation of the subject by those who believe in reincarnation and transmigration. We have condensed it; if we entered into the details, it would take much time. This summary is sufficient. No logical arguments and proofs of this question are brought forward; they are only suppositions and inferences from conjectures, and not conclusive arguments.
Proofs must be asked for from the believers in reincarnation, and not conjectures, suppositions and imaginations."
----->See now he is asking for proof.No religions is has to come up with proofs.Abrahamic religions are yet to come with proofs of their version of hell/heaven.Logical arguments can be found here.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/hinduism/86748-questioning-your-beliefs-5.html
" Those elements have been decomposed and dispersed; they are dissipated in this vast space. Afterward, other particles of elements have been combined, and a second body has been formed; it may be that one of the particles of the former individual has entered into the composition of the succeeding individual, but these particles have not been conserved and kept, exactly and completely, without addition or diminution, so that they may be combined 285 again, and from that composition and mingling another individual may come into existence. So it cannot be proved that this body with all its particles has returned; that the former man has become the latter; and that, consequently, there has been repetition; that the spirit also, like the body, has returned; and that after death its essence has come back to this world."
---------->Another myth, particles ,mind are not returned as per conventional reincarnation.But the spirit connected with past actions ,finds out a body to conduct to fulfil its desires.The soul real existence is considered to be
united with the divine.The impressions give rise to ego(that it is seperate).
"Believers in it consider the body as a vessel in which the spirit is contained, as water is contained in a cup; this water has been taken from one cup and poured into another. This is child’s play. 287 They do not realize that the spirit is an incorporeal being, and does not enter and come forth, but is only connected with the body as the sun is with the mirror.
"---->attaining the meaning of last statement is considered to an end to reincarnation.
"Those who believe in reincarnation think that the spiritual worlds are restricted to the worlds of human imagination. "
This is an abrahamic imagination on reincarnation.The above line has no place in Dharma.
The way bahai summarizes the last two paragraph is cool and appreciated.This probably has much in common with buddhist rebirth.But still in dharmic religions ,the soul can return to the earth to extinguish its samskaras(or skandha in Buddhism),and to attain the purity of spiritual perfection.The denial of this makes bahai explicitly abrahamic.
Bahai religion includes Krishna,but it does not do justice to his philosophy.
http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/bhakta/chapter17.html
"As a person gives up old and worn out garments and accepts new apparel, similarly the embodied soul giving up old and worn out bodies verily accepts new bodies."
"As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death."(Bg 2.13)
"As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, the soul similarly accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones."(Bg 2.22)
Now the problem is once u agree with this view on reincarnation,u have contradict eternal hell for disbelievers concept in some orthodox abrahamic religions.
These are just two examples i considered.Anyway,the attempt to unite the world religions ,is loved by all.
In ur final posts,
The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High.---->This is common to dharmic religions too.
"Heaven and hell are spiritual conditions, not places. Heaven is spiritual nearness to God; hell is remoteness. As such they exist here and now as well as after death, and every one of us is in one or the other at each moment as a function of "where our heads are at.
BAhai from wat i read ur posts does not mention eternal damnation for atheists.So,that differs quite a little from traditional islam/christianity.
After death, our initial condition (nearness/Heaven or remoteness/hell) will be a function of how well we've succeeded in gaining the aforementioned virtues."-------------->this concept is present in esoteric versions of all religions.
Just my points here.I dont wish to go deep in these differences .Contradictions occur in afterlife beliefs ,but otherwise it all the same for all religions.I now come to look upon bahai as a seperate and an unique religion.
It does not however reconcile with the reincarnation and eternal hell/heaven concept in abrahamic religions(mainly christinaity and Islam).But anyway its unique version of afterlife is good.
I now state some of the differences and how bahai fails to unite philosophies.
Bahai theory on eastern reincarnation
The major aspects of bahai where bahai differs is in material manifestation of spirit as the qualities improves.
It is known 'samsakaras" the scent of the soul.It is this "samsakaras" that are reincarnated.The self which is seen as seperate is in essence not seperated from the universal soul.The samsakaras take different bodies in different planes of existence(not just the visible planets,but it includes everythig including earth) to get itself corrected.This is the principle of reincarnation in traditional sense.
The transmigration of soul is an illusion and is at best a "definite" truth at least in relative standpoint .This is common point of all dharma. The subsequent material manifestations ,depends on the past actions.Bahai thinks the matter is perfected in traditional reincarnation.This is wrong.It is spirit and the impressions that are corrected ,through "rebirth".
My view is that any theory on afterlife is always unprovable,hence dogmaticizing and enforcing ones belief should be strictly avoided.I just put forward my side of argument.
"Know, then, that those who believe in reincarnation are of two classes: one class does not believe in the spiritual punishments and rewards of the other world, and they suppose that man by reincarnation and return to this world gains rewards and recompenses; they consider heaven and hell to be restricted to this world and do not speak of the existence of the other world. Among these there are two further divisions. One division thinks that man sometimes returns to this world in the form of an animal in order to undergo severe punishment and that, after enduring this painful torment, he will be released from the animal world and will come again into the human world; this is called transmigration. The other division thinks that from the human world one again returns to the human world, and that by this return rewards and punishments for a former life are obtained; this is called reincarnation. Neither of these classes speak of any other world besides this one."
---->This definitions are not exactly right.He probably influenced by druze rather than by dharmic religions.
"This is the presentation of the subject by those who believe in reincarnation and transmigration. We have condensed it; if we entered into the details, it would take much time. This summary is sufficient. No logical arguments and proofs of this question are brought forward; they are only suppositions and inferences from conjectures, and not conclusive arguments.
Proofs must be asked for from the believers in reincarnation, and not conjectures, suppositions and imaginations."
----->See now he is asking for proof.No religions is has to come up with proofs.Abrahamic religions are yet to come with proofs of their version of hell/heaven.Logical arguments can be found here.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/hinduism/86748-questioning-your-beliefs-5.html
" Those elements have been decomposed and dispersed; they are dissipated in this vast space. Afterward, other particles of elements have been combined, and a second body has been formed; it may be that one of the particles of the former individual has entered into the composition of the succeeding individual, but these particles have not been conserved and kept, exactly and completely, without addition or diminution, so that they may be combined 285 again, and from that composition and mingling another individual may come into existence. So it cannot be proved that this body with all its particles has returned; that the former man has become the latter; and that, consequently, there has been repetition; that the spirit also, like the body, has returned; and that after death its essence has come back to this world."
---------->Another myth, particles ,mind are not returned as per conventional reincarnation.But the spirit connected with past actions ,finds out a body to conduct to fulfil its desires.The soul real existence is considered to be
united with the divine.The impressions give rise to ego(that it is seperate).
"Believers in it consider the body as a vessel in which the spirit is contained, as water is contained in a cup; this water has been taken from one cup and poured into another. This is child’s play. 287 They do not realize that the spirit is an incorporeal being, and does not enter and come forth, but is only connected with the body as the sun is with the mirror.
"---->attaining the meaning of last statement is considered to an end to reincarnation.
"Those who believe in reincarnation think that the spiritual worlds are restricted to the worlds of human imagination. "
This is an abrahamic imagination on reincarnation.The above line has no place in Dharma.
The way bahai summarizes the last two paragraph is cool and appreciated.This probably has much in common with buddhist rebirth.But still in dharmic religions ,the soul can return to the earth to extinguish its samskaras(or skandha in Buddhism),and to attain the purity of spiritual perfection.The denial of this makes bahai explicitly abrahamic.
Bahai religion includes Krishna,but it does not do justice to his philosophy.
http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/bhakta/chapter17.html
"As a person gives up old and worn out garments and accepts new apparel, similarly the embodied soul giving up old and worn out bodies verily accepts new bodies."
"As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death."(Bg 2.13)
"As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, the soul similarly accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones."(Bg 2.22)
Now the problem is once u agree with this view on reincarnation,u have contradict eternal hell for disbelievers concept in some orthodox abrahamic religions.
These are just two examples i considered.Anyway,the attempt to unite the world religions ,is loved by all.
In ur final posts,
The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High.---->This is common to dharmic religions too.
"Heaven and hell are spiritual conditions, not places. Heaven is spiritual nearness to God; hell is remoteness. As such they exist here and now as well as after death, and every one of us is in one or the other at each moment as a function of "where our heads are at.
BAhai from wat i read ur posts does not mention eternal damnation for atheists.So,that differs quite a little from traditional islam/christianity.
After death, our initial condition (nearness/Heaven or remoteness/hell) will be a function of how well we've succeeded in gaining the aforementioned virtues."-------------->this concept is present in esoteric versions of all religions.
Just my points here.I dont wish to go deep in these differences .Contradictions occur in afterlife beliefs ,but otherwise it all the same for all religions.I now come to look upon bahai as a seperate and an unique religion.
Last edited by a moderator:
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
You are most welcome to your opinions!
Ours differs.
Peace,
Bruce
Ours differs.
Peace,
Bruce
Metempsychosis
Reincarnation of 'Anti-religion'
Delving on these difference is futile.Peace to you too..
Ardipithecus
Member
Intriguing me of late, I want to see what you think. Is there any possibility of a unified one world religion? What would it look like? Feel like? Be like? What scriptures/rituals/prayers/etc. would it use?
I think it's a good idea if it's implemented correctly, that is, not used as a subversive political tool. But, it'll probably never happen until reactionary groups/fundamentalism die(s) out. Again, what do you think?
Note: no conspiracies, please. Let's at least try to be somewhat . . . linear, to say the least.
I doubt that there will be a world religion. Religion is dying out all over the world as superstition and mythology are giving way to science, reason, and scepticism. I hope that human brain and cultural religion will continue to work for a better world.
Religion was invented by Stone Age and Bronze Age War Lords who needed a method to obtain and sustain power over his tribal or clan subjects. Gods were initially invented to explain natural phenomena such as springs, rivers, volcanoes, earthquakes, apparent movement of the Sun, and animation of animals including humans. As Tribal War Lords developed aspects of religion to reinforce power and popular submission, the Gods were reduced to a few or even one. That god was never nice or kind. He was cruel, vindictive, fearful, and naturally advocated obedience. He created an underworld Hell-Hades to punish those who did not believe correctly or become submissive.
It is not accidental that of the thousands of Gods in human history, the worst gods were the ones that triumphed. JHWY, Allah, and Trinity are to be feared. "God fearing is good." Gods cause natural disasters (floods, hurricanes, tornados, volcanic eruptions, hot lava flows like the one that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Trinity and Allah each have 2 billion followers and seemed to be headed to world domination.
But in Europe, East Asia, South Asia, Russia, and Australia the Anthroporphic violent god is starting to fade away. The process is less apparent in Third World Nations and paradoxically the USA.
It would be nice to have people freed from the bondage of dogma and the fear of cruel gods. An educated population would use reason and scepticism to replace childish superstition and mythology intended to scare children and frighten adults.
I doubt that all people could invent a nice kind, compassionate god who does not deliever pain, punishment, fear, and hatred. Call that God Providence (Paine and Jefferson) who does not interact with the Earth or Humans. In designing that world religion we could publish a new set of commandments.
Many religions such as Christianity and Judaism have moral codes that are incomplete. They are lacking in moral principles that most modern atheists support. I would re-write the Commandments of Moses.
1. Thou may have any or no gods before thee.
2. Thou may make graven, porcelain, or clay images of whatever suits you.
3. Thou may take the name of any god in vain. One cannot harm gods.
4. Thou may do whatever thou desireth on Sunday if it is otherwise moral.
5. Thou shalt honour thy parents, if thy parents are deserving of honour.
6a. Thou shalt not kill except in self-defence.
6b. Thou shalt not kill unbelievers, disbelievers, or dissidents on scriptural trivia.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery or thy word is worthless.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9a. Thou shalt not lie.
9b. Thou shalt not deceive others to acquire their possessions or votes.
10. Thou may covet all thou want but shalt not take what is not thine.
11. Thou shalt not persecute or hate those whose beliefs differ from yours.
12. Thou shalt not enslave another human being.
13. Thou shalt not treat cruelly or otherwise mistreat non-human animals.
14. Thou shalt not discriminate due of race, ethnicity, gender, or gender orientation.
15. Thou shalt not mentally or physically abuse or oppress thy spouse.
16. Thou shalt not mentally, physically, or sexually abuse children.
17. Thou shalt not suppress the scientific search for truth about our world.
18. Thou shalt not make laws restricting freedom of and from religion.
19. Thou shalt not make laws restricting the freedom of speech, press, media, internet, and association.
20. Thou shalt show compassion and charity to those less fortunate than you.
Americans are thinking, "oh no, another dang Liberal."
Ardi