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Only atheists

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Hi
العنكبوت
فَإِذَا رَكِبُوا فِي الْفُلْكِ دَعَوُا اللَّهَ مُخْلِصِينَ لَهُ الدِّينَ فَلَمَّا نَجَّاهُمْ إِلَى الْبَرِّ إِذَا هُمْ يُشْرِكُونَ
And when they board a ship, they supplicate Allah, sincere to Him in religion. But when He delivers them to the land, at once they associate others with Him (65)


Have u ever had this experience in your life? Both positive and negative answers are appreciated.

Note: ship here means dire situation


Thanks in advance
If we grew up beliving that doing the chicken dance would save us from all ills it would be rather different no? If we grew up thinking that but then later decided that wasn't true and that there was no way in hell that the chicken dance did anything to help the situation we would be chicken dance atheists. However if you are in a life or death situation or if your child is dying of cancer you will exhaust every single avenue you can think of. It doesn't matter if you believe in it or not. You will take that avenue. In the universe I just described a bunch of chicken dance atheists would be clucking and flapping their arms if they saw their child in critical condition. Not because they suddenly gain belief but that they will try ANYTHING no matter how small to try and help the situation.

I wouldn't conflate the desperate with the faithful.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Hi
العنكبوت
فَإِذَا رَكِبُوا فِي الْفُلْكِ دَعَوُا اللَّهَ مُخْلِصِينَ لَهُ الدِّينَ فَلَمَّا نَجَّاهُمْ إِلَى الْبَرِّ إِذَا هُمْ يُشْرِكُونَ
And when they board a ship, they supplicate Allah, sincere to Him in religion. But when He delivers them to the land, at once they associate others with Him (65)


Have u ever had this experience in your life? Both positive and negative answers are appreciated.

Note: ship here means dire situation


Thanks in advance
I am not an atheist. But I have never prayed to God in a dire situation either.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
@YmirGF
@Iewisnotmiller
@columbus

Don't keep me waiting
Luis had nothing to say let's see what u r thinking about

Weirdly, this didn't create an alert for me. And my icon didn't appear next to the namecall. Strange. Although the user tags were missing from around my name when I replied to the post, so...who knows...
Anyways, apologies on delay, but I responded briefly earlier this morning, so let me know your thoughts. Oh, and on this one...

Did I understand correctly?
[emoji33] [emoji33] [emoji33] [emoji33] [emoji33] [emoji15] [emoji15] [emoji15]

...of course, I'm not serious. I'm not sure what motivation is being prescribed to me that would make rationale sense, so I was just posting that as a tongue-in-cheek way of suggesting it doesn't make much sense to me.
 

interminable

منتظر
Sorry, I didn't see this, else would have responded sooner.
Perhaps it's too late now, but for what it's worth...

Assuming your logic of infinite regress is true (for the sake of this discussion) that tells us nothing about the pre-existing agent of change. It certainly doesn't tell us that said agent requires women to wear a head covering. Religion makes (in general) more specific claims of the agent than can be supported.

I have no need to try and reject your logic, for the same reason I don't bother arguing with Deists, pantheists or panentheists. If there is an original cause, and you want to call it God, that's fine. But once you start defining God, and God starts impacting on how people behave or how they expect me to behave, I expect more of a rationale than 'infinite regress' to explain why.
If we could prove the existence of a creator we should answer many questions after that.

Why did he create us and the universe???
Didn't he have any purpose or not????

We prove the existence and attributes of God by some logical arguments. There are many.
 

interminable

منتظر
Weirdly, this didn't create an alert for me. And my icon didn't appear next to the namecall. Strange. Although the user tags were missing from around my name when I replied to the post, so...who knows...
Anyways, apologies on delay, but I responded briefly earlier this morning, so let me know your thoughts. Oh, and on this one...



...of course, I'm not serious. I'm not sure what motivation is being prescribed to me that would make rationale sense, so I was just posting that as a tongue-in-cheek way of suggesting it doesn't make much sense to me.
It happens for me too.
I'm using TAPATALK.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
If we could prove the existence of a creator we should answer many questions after that.

Why did he create us and the universe???
Didn't he have any purpose or not????

We prove the existence and attributes of God by some logical arguments. There are many.

We haven't proven the existence of anything though. Your hypothesis is that there is an original/eternal agent. My point is that even allowing for that (which is a large leap) we know nothing about that agent.

Not whether it is sentient, nor benevolent, singular or plural, etc.
Meanwhile, in the name of that agent, all sorts of small-minded and oh-so-human rules are implemented.
 

interminable

منتظر
We haven't proven the existence of anything though. Your hypothesis is that there is an original/eternal agent. My point is that even allowing for that (which is a large leap) we know nothing about that agent.

Not whether it is sentient, nor benevolent, singular or plural, etc.
Meanwhile, in the name of that agent, all sorts of small-minded and oh-so-human rules are implemented.
Actually I don't know why u r so hasty?

If u couldn't reject my logical arguments then I will prove my God's attributes and how he looks and how old he is by other arguments
So tell me
Are Causality and infinite regress enough to prove just the existence of God not his attributes?????
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Actually I don't know why u r so hasty?

I'm not. I'm more than happy to spend more time on the initial premise if you like. I was just willing to grant it for expediency, since it can become a road-block to further conversation.

If u couldn't reject my logical arguments then I will prove my God's attributes and how he looks and how old he is by other arguments
So tell me
Are Causality and infinite regress enough to prove just the existence of God not his attributes?????

No, they're not enough to prove the existence of 'God'. However, one thing I have learned here is that God is a word with a lot of definitions. My tiny human brain struggles to consider a universe without time, or multiverses, or any of the other hypothesis about what came before the universe as we know it. So I tend to think of it in terms of a steady state model. This isn't because I have studied the area carefully enough or have enough scientific knowledge to have a strong opinion, it is simply the concept my brain can grasp most honestly. And to be honest, questions of origin are mildly interesting at best to me.

So, summary...let's assume steady state is NOT correct. After all, I have no particular reason to hold on to that theory. In that case, there was some original cause. And if you want to name that cause God, regardless of it's properties, then I can accept that. I still think you're ASSUMING steady state is not correct, but it's as hard to imagine an infinite universe as it is time before a universe, so...
 

interminable

منتظر
I'm not. I'm more than happy to spend more time on the initial premise if you like. I was just willing to grant it for expediency, since it can become a road-block to further conversation.



No, they're not enough to prove the existence of 'God'. However, one thing I have learned here is that God is a word with a lot of definitions. My tiny human brain struggles to consider a universe without time, or multiverses, or any of the other hypothesis about what came before the universe as we know it. So I tend to think of it in terms of a steady state model. This isn't because I have studied the area carefully enough or have enough scientific knowledge to have a strong opinion, it is simply the concept my brain can grasp most honestly. And to be honest, questions of origin are mildly interesting at best to me.

So, summary...let's assume steady state is NOT correct. After all, I have no particular reason to hold on to that theory. In that case, there was some original cause. And if you want to name that cause God, regardless of it's properties, then I can accept that. I still think you're ASSUMING steady state is not correct, but it's as hard to imagine an infinite universe as it is time before a universe, so...
Actually I shouldn't have named what causality and infinite regress prove GOD

I just wanted to show and prove that these two logical arguments can prove the existence of an infinite existent.
If u consider these two reasons u will find that this existent should be everywhere. It doesn't make sense to say I found somewhere that doesn't exist or tell your friends that let's go to somewhere that is non existent simply because non existent doesn't exist.

Considering this fact causality and infinite regress prove the existence of a necessary existent that is unlimited and is everywhere.
Right?
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Actually I shouldn't have named what causality and infinite regress prove GOD

I just wanted to show and prove that these two logical arguments can prove the existence of an infinite existent.
If u consider these two reasons u will find that this existent should be everywhere. It doesn't make sense to say I found somewhere that doesn't exist or tell your friends that let's go to somewhere that is non existent simply because non existent doesn't exist.

Considering this fact causality and infinite regress prove the existence of a necessary existent that is unlimited and is everywhere.
Right?

My answer wouldn't change. The only difference from my answer to this recut of the question is whether you name the necessary existent God. Including the fact that I don't see it as necessary. Nor do I say that is definitely wrong. I simply don't know, and believe it's currently unknowable.
 

interminable

منتظر
My answer wouldn't change. The only difference from my answer to this recut of the question is whether you name the necessary existent God. Including the fact that I don't see it as necessary. Nor do I say that is definitely wrong. I simply don't know, and believe it's currently unknowable.
Please u wanna say u can find somewhere that doesn't exist?
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Take a look at farmers

Without help of Sun lightning water wind soil cloud they can't reap what they sow.
So when parents say thank god they consider these things too.

But according to our traditions ''if u don't thank folk u will never thank god''.

We look at people and other things as tools since all of them are powered by a supreme
thanks-jesus-for-this-food-de-nada.jpg
 

zahra67

Active Member
in the holy quran, chapter 2, verse 152, the all merciful God says:
Therefore remember Me, I will remember you, and be thankful to Me, and do not be ungrateful to Me

and also in one part of verse 165 of this chapter we read:
And there are some among men who take for themselves objects of worship besides Allah, whom they love as they love Allah, and those who believe are stronger in love for Allah.

also verse 186 of this chapter
And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I
answer the prayer of the suppliant when he calls on Me, so they should answer My
call and believe in Me that they may walk in the right way.
This used to be a similar situation to me, yes. However, I have since become less two-faced. I've stopped being so frightful as to pray to something that I do not believe in, if that makes sense. When I had just de-converted I had been going through some bad compulsive thoughts, fears, and paranoia. Since then it's calmed down, but back then it was really problematic on a day-to-day basis. I used to be very frightened of the thoughts and feelings, so I would start praying to God to reveal himself, and that if he did, and if he helped me, I would worship him like no other. I didn't get any responses. Since then I've accepted to myself that it isn't very probable that the Abrahamic God exists. But that's just me.
 

zahra67

Active Member
hello
see chapter 2, verses 185 and 186 of the holy quran in this regard.

Allah desires
ease for you, and He does not desire for you difficulty, and [He desires] that
you should complete the number and that you should exalt the greatness of Allah
for His having guided you and that you may give thanks.
185. And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I
answer the prayer of the suppliant when he calls on Me, so they should answer My
call and believe in Me that they may walk in the right way.186
I've had this sense a few times. I have thought about whether there is something going on that is "more than" just coincidence. I think that best describes the passage because its about different ways of seeing and whether it is "allah" or "others".

I used to pray when I was a kid as I was introduced to the idea of the christian god at primary school. I would have been 4-6 years old. To the best of my knowledge god did not respond but it just helped. I was extremely lonely and had no real freinds I could talk or relate to and talking to god was how I coped. I prayed for a best freind and none came. That was how I stopped "believing" and how I became an atheist. It wasn't intellectual, it was just a kid who was lonely and took out his disapointment and hurt for a promise that wasn't fulfilled. I don't think a god could punish me for being an atheist for that even if I was wrong. Its too innocent.

I have prayed on and off since becoming an atheist. Sometimes its just to let off steam and is half in jest. The last time I really meant it was in 2013 when my bisexual crush took a job in the defence industry selling weapons and it was the moment I tried to intervene to stop him also became the same time I came out of the closet and told him I was bi. It was Unbearably messy to put it mildly. He chose a job selling weapons and effectively killing people over me and that tested all my coping mechanisms to their limits. Praying for his saftey was what I had left because nothing could be done. I sacrificed everything I had emotionally for this guy and he never understood just how much he meant to me. That part of me from being a five year old walking round the school playground talking to himself in my lunch break because I had no one to play with never really went away and here was the first time that longing for freindship could truly be answered but wasn't. I know from other sources that this guy did change his mind about the job but we haven't spoken since and I don't expect I will ever hear from him again.

Thats pretty much my relationship with "god" in a nutshell and its been almost exclusively as a coping mechanism for loneliness.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Hi
العنكبوت
فَإِذَا رَكِبُوا فِي الْفُلْكِ دَعَوُا اللَّهَ مُخْلِصِينَ لَهُ الدِّينَ فَلَمَّا نَجَّاهُمْ إِلَى الْبَرِّ إِذَا هُمْ يُشْرِكُونَ
And when they board a ship, they supplicate Allah, sincere to Him in religion. But when He delivers them to the land, at once they associate others with Him (65)


Have u ever had this experience in your life? Both positive and negative answers are appreciated.

Note: ship here means dire situation


Thanks in advance
Not understanding the quote. How do you know the ship means a dire situation???
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Sorry, I didn't see this, else would have responded sooner.
Perhaps it's too late now, but for what it's worth...

Assuming your logic of infinite regress is true (for the sake of this discussion) that tells us nothing about the pre-existing agent of change. It certainly doesn't tell us that said agent requires women to wear a head covering. Religion makes (in general) more specific claims of the agent than can be supported.

I have no need to try and reject your logic, for the same reason I don't bother arguing with Deists, pantheists or panentheists. If there is an original cause, and you want to call it God, that's fine. But once you start defining God, and God starts impacting on how people behave or how they expect me to behave, I expect more of a rationale than 'infinite regress' to explain why.
While I respect what you are saying here, it is somewhat disingenuous for him to use an argument that can easily be (and has been) refuted a hundred times before. The fact that he does not understand the refutation should not cause him to use the same argument again and again.


LINK
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Unfortunately the analogy is wrong. In your analogy there still remains a time when neither A nor B is running. However a beginningless system (A,B) where
1) A is running because B is running
2) B is running because A is running

will have no first moment where either A or B was stationary. It neither has nor requires an initial condition. In mathematics and in real life, an infinite series or a set is a fundamentally different category of entity than a finite series or a set. Unless you understand this, you will be stuck.

I will add to this. Very simply a binary system (A,B) where

1) A runs when B runs and
2) B runs when A runs

will have two stable configurations.

Configuration one is when both A and B are stationary for infinity.
Configuration two is when both A and B are running for infinity.

Both are perfectly stable and consistent configurations. Your logical mistake is to believe that somehow the state of rest must be a more natural state than the state of movement, and hence configuration two must have a beginning point. This is false. Both configurations (A,B at rest) and (A,B are running) are beginningless and endless configurations and are mutually exclusive. They cannot transform from one to the other and they have no beginning or initial condition. Both configuration one and configuration two are perfectly possible ways (A,B) can exist and neither is more likely than the other.
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