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Only one possible reason for the universe?

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Not even close to omnipotence is required to create our universe.
For instance, being able to intervene in our universe is a must for omnipotence. 'To create' doesn't entail the ability 'to intervene' though.

Being able to intervene would certainly be a quality of omnipotence, but that doesn't mean that on omnipotent would. In fact, if I'm right, just the opposite is the case. Not that It couldn't, but that It mustn't.

What's absurd about what I have said ?

Creating Pluto and the rest just happened, for one.

Atheism is often reached through skepticism towards the supernatural, which is why so many atheists don't believe in an afterlife.

Yet I've never come across one before. So are you an atheist? A good portion of atheists are young males emotionally rebelling against the phony gods--and it feels so good to be able to shoot those fish in that barrel. I wonder how many every get beyond that. It took Richard Dawkins a long time but it happened. The fact that deism can't be dismissed out of hand is occurring to a lot of thinkers.

[/quote]What kind of evidence would you expect ? Can you cite one example ?[/QUOTE]

Scientific evidence for a mechanism for spontaneous creation, or any natural evidence of anything from before the Big Bang. Stephen Hawking wanted it so bad he, well, wasn't that careful, and had to back off his suggestion. A reason that space is divisible down only to a Planck space/time since what happened between time zero and 10 to the -43 seconds is an unanswerable question, like the singularities in black holes. Was there time before the Big Bang, and if not, what does timelessness mean.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
First, omnipotence is less simplistic than you seem to think. Second, your original post spoke of "supernatural consciousness," not "omnipotent God." Please try to remember from one post to the next what you're talking about.

They're two sides of the same coin.

But, since you want to meander into the realm of omnipotence, let me ask you this: Could an omnipotent God do something with unintended consequences or without 'caring' about collateral consequences? And you know this how?

Omnipotence, by definition, means the power to do anything. If it means something else, then we have to admit that God can't do anything. Please take you patronizing attitude elsewhere. I try to be civil, and I expect to be treated the same.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Being able to intervene would certainly be a quality of omnipotence, but that doesn't mean that on omnipotent would. In fact, if I'm right, just the opposite is the case. Not that It couldn't, but that It mustn't.

Being able to is a must. And therefore, a creator doesn't have to be omnipotent.

Creating Pluto and the rest just happened, for one.

Once again: What's absurd about that ?

Yet I've never come across one before. So are you an atheist? A good portion of atheists are young males emotionally rebelling against the phony gods--and it feels so good to be able to shoot those fish in that barrel. I wonder how many every get beyond that. It took Richard Dawkins a long time but it happened. The fact that deism can't be dismissed out of hand is occurring to a lot of thinkers.

Yes, I am.

Scientific evidence for a mechanism for spontaneous creation, or any natural evidence of anything from before the Big Bang. Stephen Hawking wanted it so bad he, well, wasn't that careful, and had to back off his suggestion. A reason that space is divisible down only to a Planck space/time since what happened between time zero and 10 to the -43 seconds is an unanswerable question, like the singularities in black holes. Was there time before the Big Bang, and if not, what does timelessness mean.

Granted, but can you give me one example ?
Can you think of something that would qualify as evidence ?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You dismiss the OP because you say I offer no reasoning.
No, I dismiss it because it is contrary to reason and logic. The term "follows from" doesn't mean "is one possible result" but necessary consequence. Your statement was flat-out wrong, and even if you don't realize it, you've admitted this by allowing for alternatives that make your inference logically unjustified (which it clearly is).

Perhaps what you meant to say was that you think it likely (for whatever reason(s) you do) that if we and the universe are the product of a supernatural creator, then it seems to you to be likely that the reason for this creator's actions are as you say. But this is entirely different from claiming that given your premises your conclusion "follows from" them.

I think it's obvious myself, but instead of asking any questions, you just go off on a self-righteous huff
Logical validity is essentially mathematics. If you claim that adding to irrational numbers yields a rational number, or that you can divide by 0, etc., I don't need to ask question to see you are clearly and obviously wrong.

You made a formal inference. In order for this to be valid (and validity doesn't mean right; it's even less stringent), it must be true that on the assumption your premises are true, your inference must be true. As this isn't so, you can't even claim logical validity, which means that your assertion is necessarily unsound and laughably wrong.

The fact that you think asking questions could possibly matter here is even more problematic. Had I claimed "if you are a believer, you are a delusional, evil psychopath", I would hope you wouldn't need to ask any questions to realize my assertion is clearly baseless as it is utterly devoid of validity (my inference is not logically valid, as if the assumption is granted, the conclusion need not be true). You don't seem to be aware of what validity entails, or what logical entailment even is. Which is understandable (it's not as if logic comes naturally to most, if any). But this doesn't change that I would be as logically justified making the claim "if you are a believer, you are a delusional, evil psychopath" as the claim in the OP.


saying that if I didn't offer the evidence right away, I'm obviously wrong
You still don't get it. It isn't a matter of evidence, it's a matter of a clearly wrong, logically invalid inference. Evidence would matter if you changed your claim or made an argument such that you somehow managed to make your conclusion follow from your premise given some set of added steps. But you don't seem to realize what this involves or why this is what matters (or why you are clearly wrong). You could be absolutely right about the motivations of your supernatural creator, but it doesn't matter because the "follows from" is just plain wrong. Again, it's the validity of your argument that is at stake, not whether your position is correct (your argument is wrong, as it doesn't even meet the status of logical validity).
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
If the universe was created by a supernatural consciousness, it follows that there's only one reason for it to have done so: to spawn creatures with moral free will, without the Creator influencing those moral choices.

And if frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their asses. When you can show that it was actually created by an intelligent agent, we can talk.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
If the universe was created by a supernatural consciousness, the one thing we can take for granted is that we certainly can't presuppose anything about them or believe that they operate using anything approaching human reasoning in anything they do.

It would make far less sense than taking psychoanalytical advice from an ant.

Nor could one assume benevolence on their part just because someone said so in an old story.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Nonsense.

Devastating.

Parenthetically, does the "power to do anything" include the power to do things with unintended consequences?

Why would it? If God is omnipotent, there would be no unintended consequences. God (if It exists) apparently gave us moral free will, which means some of us will choose to do evil. That doesn't make that an evil being by God's choice. The evildoer made the choice. Evil and suffering, as well as joy and victory all result from free will. They and much more are the cost we must pay for the rewards that come with it.

Being able to is a must. And therefore, a creator doesn't have to be omnipotent.

A creator of the universe would be so close we couldn't ever tell the difference from here.

Once again: What's absurd about that ?

That's like spitting on the sidewalk causing the whole Earth to explode. It just doesn't follow. If an omnipotent God had the power to create the universe starting with Pluto, then It had the power to create the universe

Yes, I am.

Thanks for the elucidation.

Granted, but can you give me one example ?
Can you think of something that would qualify as evidence ?

I just did. But I'll put it another way: show that time existed before the Big Bang....or that it didn't, in which case there would not be a "before", only timelessness and then the Big Bang. My metaphysical guess is that time as a single dimension did precede the Big Bang, but that it was swamped in amongst an infinite number of other dimensions so that as all the dimensions cycle through, time just never comes up, or maybe just once every 200 trillion years.

There is no such thing as free will if there is fate, only the illusion thereof.

So if there is only fate (and I agree, there can only be one or the other), then everything is predetermined and this veil of tears is all just a giant 13 billion years and counting cosmic joke on us. "Ha! Good one God. Thanks for letting us practice bleeding."

We were created for companionship with the Creator.

If God exists, I tend to agree. But only if we pass the test. And the test is not to just dump our free will and ability to reason and say I believe because Paul said to 2000 years ago. Jesus didn't even go there. He and his partner, John the Baptizer preached salvation through repentance and good works. But Paul said we don't even have to try to be good. That's why I think the Ebionites/Nazarenes called him the "Spouter of Lies" and "The Beast", whose number was Jewish Gematria for Tarsus. And that very same number represented Solomonic wealth in the O/T, and Paul, being a Roman Citizen and descendant of Herod, was wealthy. Let him who has wisdom understand.

Sorry, got started and couldn't stop.

And if frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their asses. When you can show that it was actually created by an intelligent agent, we can talk.

Thanks for the snide opening. That's choice. Claim certainty that there is no God and that the universe resulted from a spontaneous event; then claim the burden of proof is on those who allow that it might have been created by God, or might not.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
That presumes an omnipotent creator, and not just a supernatural consciousness.
Putting that aside, we might just be a by-product.

I see it as an amazing property of atoms and molecules looking back at itself.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
A creator of the universe would be so close we couldn't ever tell the difference from here.

No. Like I have said, the creator of this universe could lack the ability to intervene on it. That's a pretty remarkable difference.

That's like spitting on the sidewalk causing the whole Earth to explode. It just doesn't follow. If an omnipotent God had the power to create the universe starting with Pluto, then It had the power to create the universe

It seems you haven't finished this sentence.

I just did. But I'll put it another way: show that time existed before the Big Bang....or that it didn't, in which case there would not be a "before", only timelessness and then the Big Bang. My metaphysical guess is that time as a single dimension did precede the Big Bang, but that it was swamped in amongst an infinite number of other dimensions so that as all the dimensions cycle through, time just never comes up, or maybe just once every 200 trillion years.

I don't comprehend. How would showing that time existed before the Big Bang point towards an universe that wasn't created ?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Why would it? If God is omnipotent, there would be no unintended consequences.

This presumes that an omnipotent being would always seek to achieve its aims through surgical precision and efficiency. What is the justification for this rationale ?
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
No. Like I have said, the creator of this universe could lack the ability to intervene on it. That's a pretty remarkable difference.

Why do you say that? I mean I think the Creator God mustn't intervene, but could if It so chose. Why do you say It would lack the ability?

It seems you haven't finished this sentence.

Sorry, I inadvertently left the period off.
>.<
There.

I don't comprehend. How would showing that time existed before the Big Bang point towards an universe that wasn't created ?

You asked me for an example of something that would qualify as evidence from before the Big Bang.

There wouldn't cause there wouldn't. So there!

(He says, stomping his foot peremptorily!)

I sense a maturity issue. Acting out, throwing a fit, declarative non-responses or closing your eyes covering your ears and saying "lalalalalala" doesn't qualify as reasoned discourse. Save us all some time and work on that before your next post please.
 
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Koldo

Outstanding Member
Why do you say that? I mean I think the Creator God mustn't intervene, but could if It so chose. Why do you say It would lack the ability?

I am saying that it can lack the ability.
A creator god doesn't have to be omnipotent to create our universe.

You asked me for an example of something that would qualify as evidence from before the Big Bang.

No. I asked for an example as to what would qualify as evidence that our universe wasn't created.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
I am saying that it can lack the ability.
A creator god doesn't have to be omnipotent to create our universe.



No. I asked for an example as to what would qualify as evidence that our universe wasn't created.

Finding any natural mechanism at work prior to the Big Bang, or natural forces at work in the background aether indicating a force from "before" the universe.. It wouldn't necessarily be proof, just evidence. Say the Transactional Interpretation of quantum mechanics turns out to be right (which it probably is), and that some transactions backward in time are found to have been completed prior to the time of the Big Bang. Or say we invented some coded beacon material that we fired into the black hole in the center of the Milky Way, that then appeared suddenly elsewhere in the universe with an internal clock indicating that it's age was double that of the Big Bang. Or say, scientists did an experiment where the fabric of space (aether/dark matter/whatever) was cleared away from a given point, and a mini-Big Bang occurred, and we were able to observe the natural forces from before that mini-bang at work.

IOW any indication that the Big Bang was not the result of irrational supernature.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If the universe was created by a supernatural consciousness, it follows that there's only one reason for it to have done so: to spawn creatures with moral free will, without the Creator influencing those moral choices.
When a couple choose to have children, is it to spawn creatures with free moral will, and have no influence on the children's moral choices? There may be a some parents in that category, but by and large I think most parents have better motives for becoming parents.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
When a couple choose to have children, is it to spawn creatures with free moral will, and have no influence on the children's moral choices? There may be a some parents in that category, but by and large I think most parents have better motives for becoming parents.

The parents have children driven by their genes like all mortal animals to reproduce. Sometimes evil parents have good children, and vice versa. But most parents love their children beyond their genetic programming. God, on the other hand, if It exists, created the universe to spawn such creatures as we, with the inherent ability to know good from evil born of our self-awareness. We have the ability to choose to do good or evil without external influence. It's a test for every individual. Having knowledge that our mortal parents know what we do, is far different from knowing that there's a God who knows. Mortal, fallible parents could never be a substitute for God.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The parents have children driven by their genes like all mortal animals to reproduce. Sometimes evil parents have good children, and vice versa. But most parents love their children beyond their genetic programming. God, on the other hand, if It exists, created the universe to spawn such creatures as we, with the inherent ability to know good from evil born of our self-awareness. We have the ability to choose to do good or evil without external influence. It's a test for every individual. Having knowledge that our mortal parents know what we do, is far different from knowing that there's a God who knows. Mortal, fallible parents could never be a substitute for God.
The Bible calls Adam the "son of God." (Luke 3:38) Angels are likewise called "sons of God." (Job 38:7) As a loving father teaches and nurture his children, I believe Jehovah is a loving Father who cares deeply for his creation. Despite man's fall into sin and rebellion against God, Jehovah lovingly invites us to draw close to him. (James 4:8) He does not force anyone to serve him, but he richly rewards those who do so because they love God. (Hebrews 11:6)
 
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