Open debate: does God exist?

[tumbleweed41]

We just can't know that. in the circumstances that we observed, it is always immoral to go into a school and shoot innocent children to death, objectively wrong and immoral. There can be no subjectivity about that. That one single crime validates objective moral values and duties in the world and here is the conclusion.

A) If God did not exist, objective moral values and duties would not exist.
B) Objective moral values and duties do exist.
C) Therefore, God exists.

Is something moral because God says so? Then it is subjective to Gods will.
A simple reading of the Bible shows this to be so.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

In the wake of the Newtown, CT crime, I think it is a good time to talk about objective moral values and duties. I don’t think that there is a person on this earth that could say that what was done to those people and children could be in anyway be construed as moral, which is evidence that there are objective morals in the world.
The shooter had his reason though, and to him it probably did seem justified or he wouldn't have done it.

I'm new here but would like to debate non-atheists about the existence of god. If you feel that any meaningful definition of god exists, feel free to share your reasons why.

Some aspects of god I am certain do not exist. But the rest of them I don't know nor care enough to really delve into something that I will never know because I do not trust my own senses, and because there is so much here are now that do objectively exist to study and learn about.

We just can't know that. in the circumstances that we observed, it is always immoral to go into a school and shoot innocent children to death, objectively wrong and immoral. There can be no subjectivity about that. That one single crime validates objective moral values and duties in the world and here is the conclusion.

A) If God did not exist, objective moral values and duties would not exist.
B) Objective moral values and duties do exist.
C) Therefore, God exists.

There is no such thing as these "objective moral values and duties" though. All you have to do is examine any culture you come across, compare them all, and you will see that truly there are no universal morality, especially because morality rarely applies to outsiders, and even insiders many times. If there were anything that even remotely resembled universal morality, slavery, exploitation, war, genocide, and many other atrocities just would not happen. Now, because people like Hitler, who did see himself as a very moral person, was able to convince others his ways were morally correct, and something that God himself wanted, then we clearly have a conflict of definitions of what is moral.
As for the morality of children, ask that question to people who were trained to kill as a child. Or those who were put into a position of having to defend themselves against a child soldier. It may sound cold to say this, but in such situations morality does not apply and the only thing that does is self-preservation. War in general proves there are no universally applicable morals.

Objectivity means that something is wrong, no matter if we think it is wrong or not. If someone in the universe didn't think that it was wrong, it would still be wrong and it is.

ob·jec·tive
/əbˈjektiv/Adjective(of a person or their judgment) Not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

God's exists for people who believe it does. Personally, I think that number is overinflated by a substantial margin. This is basically since I doubt many people have enough of an understanding of what belief is for it to be meaningful.

 

[Shibolet]

I'm new here but would like to debate non-atheists about the existence of god. If you feel that any meaningful definition of god exists, feel free to share your reasons why.

Do you remember your great, great, great, great, grandmother? Obviously you don't. Did she exist? If you do, obviously, she did too. Can you say anything about her? You definitely can't. That's an evidence that God exists. If it is not, tell me where did the universe come from and what was there before it started. If you cannot provide a satisfying answer, "by default" is another evidence that God exists.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Do you remember your great, great, great, great, grandmother? Obviously you don't. Did she exist? If you do, obviously, she did too. Can you say anything about her? You definitely can't. That's an evidence that God exists.

The only thing this is evidence of is that your understanding of what evidence is, is wanting.

 

[9Westy9]

Do you remember your great, great, great, great, grandmother? Obviously you don't. Did she exist? If you do, obviously, she did too. Can you say anything about her? You definitely can't. That's an evidence that God exists.

So God is my great, great, great, great, great, grandfather????? :areyoucra

If it is not, tell me where did the universe come from and what was there before it started. If you cannot provide a satisfying answer, "by default" is another evidence that God exists.

I don't know. Of course that doesn't mean God did it and the burden of proof is on you to prove it

 

[9Westy9]

In the wake of the Newtown, CT crime, I think it is a good time to talk about objective moral values and duties. I don’t think that there is a person on this earth that could say that what was done to those people and children could be in anyway be construed as moral, which is evidence that there are objective morals in the world.

Of course if there is even one person who thinks that the shooting is moral then your entire argument falls apart.

The only question left is where did objective values and morals come from? Did they come from light, or matter, or from evolution? Do we charge immorality to a lion that kills a deer, or a dog that steals a bone? The crime that was committed would be wrong and immoral in any community in the world.

considering that morality is constantly changing I'd say "objective morals" are just morals that have become widely accepted by humans over time.

 

[freethinker44]

If you cannot provide a satisfying answer, "by default" is another evidence that God exists.

Oh alright, all I need is a satisfying answer to prove there is no god? Done. I have an answer that is satisfying to myself, so I guess I win.

All jokes aside, god is not the default answer. As history has proven time and time again, "I don't know" is the default answer.

 

[RogerTheAtheist]

Firstly.. tell me for which god you are talking about, god the creator ?

Whichever god anyone would like to make a case for.

Existence is a given, definition is the only question. All things exist first as concepts. God is no different. It is most definitely a concept. And concepts exist. God is actually a bit more than that, as it is a very popular concept, so it has been translated into reality in the written word, illustration, sculpture, etc. Thus, god exists as these things as well. If there is a god in the universe beyond that I can't be sure, but I certainly believe it does.

If something exists as a concept, then at most you can say that the concept exists. The concept of the character Dr. Doom exists, but that doesn't mean that he exists outside of fiction. Many gods have been believed in throughout human history.

Do you remember your great, great, great, great, grandmother? Obviously you don't. Did she exist? If you do, obviously, she did too. Can you say anything about her? You definitely can't. That's an evidence that God exists. If it is not, tell me where did the universe come from and what was there before it started. If you cannot provide a satisfying answer, "by default" is another evidence that God exists.

I couldn't make any claim about her other than her existence that would set her apart from any other given person. Her existence can be inferred because humanity existed for more than those few generations; so unless there's non-human ancestry in my origin or time began at a later date with the illusion of history, her existence is a link between previous and current generations. Her existence isn't an absolute truth, even though logic almost necessitates it.

My great (x4) grandma isn't evidence for god. The universe may not have had a beginning, but the big bang is the furthest back anyone can see and can be said to be the beginning of the observable universe as we know it. Could and did the universe exist before the big bang. No one knows. Is there a multiverse with a finite number of universes? No one knows. This is the intellectually honest position; inserting god is god of the gaps, a logical fallacy. God is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence and arguably a greater explanation than the universe does because god by definition would be infinitely more powerful and complex. I could just as easily claim that fairies, the plumed serpent, or the three goddesses from Ocarina of Time created the universe, and the evidence for them as an explanation for the universe would be equally devoid of evidence as god. Lastly, although you didn't bring up an uncaused cause directly, suggesting that the universe needs a cause but god doesn't is special pleading, whereas god needing a cause leads to infinite regress.

 

[idea]

I'm new here but would like to debate non-atheists about the existence of god. If you feel that any meaningful definition of god exists, feel free to share your reasons why.

My short answers, and then I have to run.

1. The nature of who we are points towards the existence of mind/intelligence/spirit - call it what you will, but our ability to think, act, grow, change, our free will - we are not merely mechanical robots... the universe is made up of more than matter and energy - there is also information, laws, forces, and life/intelligences/spirits. I view our spirit as being the animating force of our life and thoughts, and do not believe that our own spirits are the only ones that exist within the universe. As with all things, there are lesser spirits, and greater spirits - the greatest of which, is God.

2. Spiritual experiences. I believe in God because He has spoken to me through His Spirit - literally. He has strengthened me when I needed it, and guided me through tough decisions. There are different forms that spiritual communication takes, but I believe that everyone has a conscience - everyone has that little proverbial jiminy cricket on their shoulder guilt tripping them into doing what is right - I think we all really do have angels sitting on our shoulders, and sometimes devils too.

linkhttp://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=mcafee&p=youtube+Mormon+messages+light

 

[RogerTheAtheist]

My short answers, and then I have to run.

1. The nature of who we are points towards the existence of mind/intelligence/spirit - call it what you will, but our ability to think, act, grow, change, our free will - we are not merely mechanical robots... the universe is made up of more than matter and energy - there is also information, laws, forces, and life/intelligences/spirits. I view our spirit as being the animating force of our life and thoughts, and do not believe that our own spirits are the only ones that exist within the universe. As with all things, there are lesser spirits, and greater spirits - the greatest of which, is God.

We're not robots because we can think, learn, and make choices. So can other intelligent life forms such as dogs. I'd like to know how you know that there are spirits, and different classes of them no less.

2. Spiritual experiences. I believe in God because He has spoken to me through His Spirit - literally. He has strengthened me when I needed it, and guided me through tough decisions. There are different forms that spiritual communication takes, but I believe that everyone has a conscience - everyone has that little proverbial jiminy cricket on their shoulder guilt tripping them into doing what is right - I think we all really do have angels sitting on our shoulders, and sometimes devils too.

By spoken to you, I'm assuming you're not referring to an audible voice but rather a gut feeling of what he wants you to do. The human conscience is called the holy spirit when people believe it's god rather than their own mind. When it's something "good" it's the holy spirit, and when it's something "bad" it's the devil.

A mentally healthy person's conscience from what I can tell is for the most part based on compassion for others and an understanding of how actions affects them. Consider the following scenario:

You go to a friend's house wearing a red shirt, and everything seems normal. As you leave, someone tells you that a person at the house has an emotional breakdown when seeing the color red. You feel guilty. Next time you're invited, you might remember and take special care not to wear red. This is because if you remember (you might forget and wear red anyway), chances are you'll have sympathy for the person and anticipate the negative reaction from wearing red. If your caring about the person and your reputation outweigh any reason you would have for wearing red, you'll probably wear a different color. This is a logical, rational mental processes that requires no supernatural explanation including the holy spirit.

There's another scenario that's both applicable to the holy spirit and testable. If someone is saved and said to be guided by the holy spirit, then the holy spirit should be able to offer divine inspiration instead of being limited by a physical brain. Let's say that this person hasn't completely read the bible yet and eats a big plate of shrimp lo mein without having any reason to feel guilty. This person then finds out that eating shellfish is a sin; I know it's Mosaic Law, so maybe the person was one of those the law was directed at. The person will begin to feel guilty, because being told that something is wrong makes you feel guilty when doing it. If it was the holy spirit, the feeling of guilt shouldn't be limited by the knowledge of it being a sin. Likewise, if the command doesn't apply to the person but he feels guilt from thinking it's a sin, it's the same process of the mind's natural conscience rather than a divine cosmic force.

 

[moegypt]

I'm new here but would like to debate non-atheists about the existence of god. If you feel that any meaningful definition of god exists, feel free to share your reasons why.

God existing because everything is going with a system.not starting by our bodies systems (Lymphatic System,Nervous System,Reproductive System,Respiratory System,...) and not finishing by The universe systems (Solar system, gravitational system, ..).

 

[Tristesse]

A) If God did not exist, objective moral values and duties would not exist.

Incorrect. Thats called an assertion, you would need to demonstrate that a god is required for there to be objective moral values.

B) Objective moral values and duties do exist.

Again, this also has not been demonstrated. I'm not saying it's false, but you cannot simply assert as fact what has not been determined to be the case.

C) Therefore, God exists.

Therefore, I think you need a new argument. Nothing has been demonstrated, it's assertion after assertion. I'll show you what I mean.

A) If God exists, objective moral values and duties would not exist.

B) Objective moral values and duties do exist.

C) Therefore, God does not exist.

Do you recognize the invalidity of the argument? The conclusion follows from the premises, but the premises have not been confirmed or demonstrated. Therefore, the conclusion is invalid, it's the same with your argument. You have undemonstrated premises.

 

[freethinker44]

God existing because everything is going with a system.not starting by our bodies systems (Lymphatic System,Nervous System,Reproductive System,Respiratory System,...) and not finishing by The universe systems (Solar system, gravitational system, ..).

Care to elaborate? I'm not really seeing a connection between things we call systems and a god's existence.

 

[McBell]

A) If God did not exist, objective moral values and duties would not exist.
B) Objective moral values and duties do exist.
C) Therefore, God exists.

Now all you need to do is show that your first two premises are more than wishful thinking.

 

[moegypt]

Care to elaborate? I'm not really seeing a connection between things we call systems and a god's existence.

So who make these systems? Who make these systems in your body?

 

[McBell]

it is always immoral to go into a school and shoot innocent children to death, objectively wrong and immoral.

unless he believed that killing them now was in fact saving them from a worse pain later.

So your claim of "always" may not be accurate.

 

[McBell]

So who make these systems? Who make these systems in your body?

Why should we assume that these systems were "made"?

 

[freethinker44]

So who make these systems? Who make these systems in your body?

That question is unanswerable. A "who" did not make these systems, a "what" did. The answer to the "what" is: the systems are their own creators. It is worth noting that, the systems are only systems because we call them that. Without our intelligence to perceive them as a system, they would just be a mass of atoms in mostly empty space, and in reality, that is all they are; we just don't perceive them that way.

 

[moegypt]

Why should we assume that these systems were "made"?

Why should we assume they were not made?

It is a system, that is why?