Open debate: does God exist?

[McBell]

Why should we assume they were not made?

It is a system, that is why?

because there is no indication that they were "made".

 

[Desert Snake]

That question is unanswerable. A "who" did not make these systems, a "what" did. The answer to the "what" is: the systems are their own creators.

Well, that's somewhat speculation too. We don't know the genesis of life on earth so we're sort of assuming quite a bit.

 

[moegypt]

That question is unanswerable. A "who" did not make these systems, a "what" did. The answer to the "what" is: the systems are their own creators. It is worth noting that, the systems are only systems because we call them that. Without our intelligence to perceive them as a system, they would just be a mass of atoms in mostly empty space, and in reality, that is all they are; we just don't perceive them that way.

The systems are their own creators!

They are not systems because we call them that but because organized steps are there!

So vehicles are their own creators? What a logic this

See u later today..have work

 

[freethinker44]

Well, that's somewhat speculation too. We don't know the genesis of life on earth so we're sort of assuming quite a bit.

Genesis of life has little or nothing to do with the formation of bodily functions. The various systems we use to function were formed through evolution, therefore, the life-sustaining systems were created by us, for us ('us' being all life on Earth).

 

[McBell]

The systems are their own creators!

They are not systems because we call them that but because organized steps are there!

So vehicles are their own creators? What a logic this

See u later today..have work

Oh geez, not another watchmaker thread...:no:

 

[freethinker44]

So vehicles are their own creators? What a logic this

What do vehicles have to do with the lymphatic system? By "vehicles" I am assuming you mean cars, planes, trains, etc..., and you know those were invented by people right?

 

[moegypt]

What do vehicles have to do with the lymphatic system? By "vehicles" I am assuming you mean cars, planes, trains, etc..., and you know those were invented by people right?

This is an example, If we can't say that Vehicles created themselves, We can't say that Lymphatic system created themselves..Sure there is a maker

 

[moegypt]

because there is no indication that they were "made".

If it is well organized and there are inputs and outputs, Then this is a system made.

 

[Desert Snake]

If it is well organized and there are inputs and outputs, Then this is a system made.

Are you a Deist? That what your comment seems similar to

 

[Ingledsva]

In the wake of the Newtown, CT crime, I think it is a good time to talk about objective moral values and duties. I don’t think that there is a person on this earth that could say that what was done to those people and children could be in anyway be construed as moral, which is evidence that there are objective morals in the world. The only question left is where did objective values and morals come from? Did they come from light, or matter, or from evolution? Do we charge immorality to a lion that kills a deer, or a dog that steals a bone? The crime that was committed would be wrong and immoral in any community in the world.

And in reality, what does murder, or crime, have to do with being in a religion or not?

We have a lot of Christons in prison.

 

[idea]

We're not robots because we can think, learn, and make choices. So can other intelligent life forms such as dogs. I'd like to know how you know that there are spirits, and different classes of them no less.

All life has spirit - that's what makes it alive. The difference between something that is alive, and something that is not alive, is that living things have a spirit. I know there are spirits because they are the source of our free will.

I'm not the only one who believes that our mind transmits, rather than produces, our thoughts - link

By spoken to you, I'm assuming you're not referring to an audible voice but rather a gut feeling of what he wants you to do.

I actually have heard an audible voice, (it actually scared the **** out of me, but then that's what the angels told the shepherds too - "fear not", so I'm not the only one who has felt fear) - it was more than just audible though, it came within my ears, but also within my mind - it was both outside, and inside at the same time. a bit like this:
[youtube]odT4u0fyRmo[/youtube]
Sagan on flatland - YouTube

But usually, "feeling" is perhaps the closest word? although feeling does not quite capture it either...

This is a logical, rational mental processes that requires no supernatural explanation including the holy spirit.

I've been directed on things that were outside my physical ability to know - like being directed to take another route when driving somewhere, and later found I avoided a traffic jam, or being prompted to call someone, and then finding out after I called that they really needed that phone call at that particular time - these small little types of things have happened often enough, that I know these promptings did not come from within me - but from another source.

When I heard an audible voice, I was told something that would happen within my future - something I did not believe would happen at the time - and it happened.... so I am a believer.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I've been directed on things that were outside my physical ability to know - like being directed to take another route when driving somewhere, and later found I avoided a traffic jam, or being prompted to call someone, and then finding out after I called that they really needed that phone call at that particular time - these small little types of things have happened often enough, that I know these promptings did not come from within me - but from another source.

Or, y'know, it could just be luck and coincidence. Which is far more likely.

When I heard an audible voice, I was told something that would happen within my future - something I did not believe would happen at the time - and it happened.... so I am a believer.

Can you demonstrate that this is true? What can you show us that would be a clear indication that the voice you hear in your head is different to the voice any insane person may hear?

 

[freethinker44]

This is an example, If we can't say that Vehicles created themselves, We can't say that Lymphatic system created themselves..Sure there is a maker

Well, I don't really feel like going through the first cause/watchmaker argument again, it kind of gets boring after so many times. So for the sake of argument, and to make it interesting, I will concede that there must have been some ultimate, universal creator. Now, prove that a creator is god.

 

[Sir Doom]

If something exists as a concept, then at most you can say that the concept exists.

Interestingly enough, I agree completely. The thing is that all things exist as concepts. And that is the most you can say for sure about anything. You can say, "A thing exists." with surety. Everything after that is speculative and/or arbitrary. In my oh so humble opinion that is

The concept of the character Dr. Doom exists, but that doesn't mean that he exists outside of fiction. Many gods have been believed in throughout human history.

True, but that isn't why you know Dr. Doom is fictional. You know because the creator of Dr. Doom says so. That's a living being that created a character telling you its a fictional character. Not centuries of human belief telling you its not fictional and that it was created 'divinely'. That's a pretty clear distinction between Dr. Doom and God. Personally, I needed a lot more evidence than that to believe, and I assume you are the same given your name. But at face value the concept's existence suggests the literal existence more than it suggests fictional. Luckily, there is a lot more to go on than just this one piece of information. Just as there is for Dr. Doom.

 

[idea]

Or, y'know, it could just be luck and coincidence. Which is far more likely.

Can you demonstrate that this is true? What can you show us that would be a clear indication that the voice you hear in your head is different to the voice any insane person may hear?

Many prophets have prophecies correctly about future events, but that isn't really their purpose - their purpose is to be a witness of God and teach us how to grow closer to Him - not to put on a "magic" show that people will just continually see as just that - some parlor trick...

What I can do, is to tell you what you can do to recognize the same Spirit within your own life, for the light of Christ shines within everyone. The light of Christ is the reason we all hold to pretty much the same morals (link) - through being honest with yourself, keeping a humble obedient heart - and reaching deep inside your conscience, you can find this light of Christ. To the extent that you follow this inner light, it will grow brighter within you. With practice, patience, humility, sincerity, a submissive heart, and a willingness to repent - to release your own will for His, the light grows brighter. We are only shown what we are able to handle - I personally have not seen as much as some, but I have seen enough to know that it is real.

And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, 3 Nephi 9:20 / Psalms 51:17

(Guide to the Scriptures | H Holy Ghost.:Entry)

HOLY GHOST. See also Baptism, Baptize; Comforter; Dove, Sign of the; Gift of the Holy Ghost; God, Godhead; Holy Spirit of Promise; Inspiration, Inspire; Revelation; Unpardonable Sin

The third member of the Godhead (1 Jn. 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a personage of Spirit, not having a body of flesh and bones (D&C 130:22). The Holy Ghost is often referred to as the Spirit, or the Spirit of God.

The Holy Ghost performs several vital roles in the plan of salvation. (1) He bears witness of the Father and the Son (1 Cor. 12:3; 3 Ne. 28:11; Ether 12:41). (2) He reveals the truth of all things (John 14:26; 16:13; Moro. 10:5; D&C 39:6). (3) He sanctifies those who have repented and become baptized (John 3:5; 3 Ne. 27:20; Moses 6:64–68). (4) He is the Holy Spirit of Promise (D&C 76:50–53; 132:7, 18–19, 26).

The power of the Holy Ghost can come upon a person before baptism and witness that the gospel is true. But the right to have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, whenever one is worthy, is a gift that can be received only by the laying on of hands by a Melchizedek Priesthood holder after authorized baptism into the true Church of Jesus Christ.

Jesus taught that all sins could be forgiven except blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (Matt. 12:31–32; Mark 3:28–29; Luke 12:10; Heb. 6:4–8; D&C 76:34–35).

The Spirit causes men to walk in God's statutes, Ezek. 36:27. The Apostles were commissioned to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, Matt. 28:19. The Holy Ghost shall teach you all things, John 14:26. Holy men spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost, 2 Pet. 1:21. Nephi was led by the Spirit, 1 Ne. 4:6. The mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them by the power of the Holy Ghost, 1 Ne. 10:17–19. The Holy Ghost shows all things that you should do, 2 Ne. 32:5. By the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things, Moro. 10:5. The Holy Ghost will tell you in your mind and in your heart, D&C 8:2. The Spirit leadeth to do good, D&C 11:12. The Holy Ghost knoweth all things, D&C 35:19. The Holy Ghost teaches the peaceable things of the kingdom, D&C 36:2 (D&C 39:6). If ye receive not the Spirit, ye shall not teach, D&C 42:14. The Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and the Son, D&C 42:17 (1 Cor. 12:3; 3 Ne. 11:32, 35–36). To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, D&C 46:13. Whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, D&C 68:4. The Holy Ghost shall be shed forth in bearing record unto all things ye shall say, D&C 100:8. The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, D&C 121:45–46.

lds.org is down so I can't give you the link - but Elder Richard G. Scott Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles gave a wonderful talk where he likened the inspiring influence of the Holy Spirit to the delicate flavor of a grape which can be overcome or masked by things like strong emotions, anger, hate, passion, fear, and pride. He said that when such influences are present, it is like trying to savor the delicate flavor of a grape while eating a jalapeño pepper. If you can get rid of the jalapeño peppers into your life - spit them out, then you will be able to savor the delicate flavor of the Spirit.

there are many wonderful youtubes about it for anyone who is interested in taking the spiritual journey into further light and knowledge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPbDZnrxBLM

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Many prophets have prophecies correctly about future events, but that isn't really their purpose - their purpose is to be a witness of God and teach us how to grow closer to Him - not to put on a "magic" show that people will just continually see as just that - some parlor trick...

I wouldn't say that accurately predicting future events would be a "parlor trick". If someone showed me some real, hard evidence that these people were able to do so, then it would be enough to convince me that there is at least some truth to their claims - although not necessarily the claims of divine inspiration. It would, at the very least, open up the possibility for me to consider the existence of clairvoyance.

What I can do, is to tell you what you can do to recognize the same Spirit within your own life, for the light of Christ shines within everyone. The light of Christ is the reason we all hold to pretty much the same morals (link) - through being honest with yourself, keeping a humble obedient heart - and reaching deep inside your conscience, you can find this light of Christ.

Actually, I would say we hold pretty much the same morals because we are both parts of a rational world with brains that work in an almost identical fashion. We don't need to reach for magic to explain shared morality - it's mostly just common sense and understanding of how societies function. You could just as easily say it comes from Muhammed, or Buddha, or Zeus, or fairies. Unless you can demonstrate that what you're saying is true, I can freely disregard it.

 

[idea]

I wouldn't say that accurately predicting future events would be a "parlor trick". If someone showed me some real, hard evidence that these people were able to do so, then it would be enough to convince me that there is at least some truth to their claims - although not necessarily the claims of divine inspiration. It would, at the very least, open up the possibility for me to consider the existence of clairvoyance.

The scriptures are before you, as they are before everyone. Just google "scriptural prophecies that have been fulfilled"... if you rationalize and justify away all that is already in the scriptures, then you would do the same to anyone who now claims the same ability. The only way for anyone to trust in the Spirit, is to have their own spiritual journey - to experience it for themselves.

Actually, I would say we hold pretty much the same morals because we are both parts of a rational world with brains that work in an almost identical fashion. We don't need to reach for magic to explain shared morality - it's mostly just common sense and understanding of how societies function. You could just as easily say it comes from Muhammed, or Buddha, or Zeus, or fairies. Unless you can demonstrate that what you're saying is true, I can freely disregard it.

The only real way you can disregard what anyone claims, is to test it yourself. If you have not personally done the test, then you cannot have an understanding of what it is others who claim spiritual guidance are talking about... and I am not the only one who has experienced spiritual guidance... if you would like to talk to others of my faith, to get their stories too - if hearing a bunch of people all saying the same thing - all saying they have felt the Spirit - not in a metaphorical sense - but that they have actually felt a power that has guided and helped them - feel free to go to LDS.net, and start a thread on "Is the Spirit real? tell me your experiences with it." or you could go to Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board and do the same thing, or just to to Mormon.org, search for "Spirit" and start reading. The Spirit is real - but you have to do the test for yourself to find out.

 

[Lintfelmy]

There is no heaven or hell. God is I and I am God. Star dust to star dust. Does anything really matter besides what I can perceive with my senses and feel with my feelings? I am the center of the universe for all practical purposes, as are all of you.

 

[Desert Snake]

There is no heaven or hell. God is I and I am God. Star dust to star dust. Does anything really matter besides what I can perceive with my senses and feel with my feelings? I am the center of the universe for all practical purposes, as are all of you.

Thanks, do you like deep dish or thin crust?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The scriptures are before you, as they are before everyone. Just google "scriptural prophecies that have been fulfilled"... if you rationalize and justify away all that is already in the scriptures, then you would do the same to anyone who now claims the same ability. The only way for anyone to trust in the Spirit, is to have their own spiritual journey - to experience it for themselves.

I could also google "proof bigfoot exists". Some spurious websites are not sufficient evidence of the accuracy of prophetic accounts, nor is it sufficient evidence that such prophecies were divinely inspired. Could you, perhaps, instead provide one or two prophecies which you find particularly convincing so that I can review them?

The only real way you can disregard what anyone claims, is to test it yourself. If you have not personally done the test, then you cannot have an understanding of what it is others who claim spiritual guidance are talking about... and I am not the only one who has experienced spiritual guidance... if you would like to talk to others of my faith, to get their stories too - if hearing a bunch of people all saying the same thing - all saying they have felt the Spirit - not in a metaphorical sense - but that they have actually felt a power that has guided and helped them - feel free to go to LDS.net, and start a thread on "Is the Spirit real? tell me your experiences with it." or you could go to Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board and do the same thing, or just to to Mormon.org, search for "Spirit" and start reading. The Spirit is real - but you have to do the test for yourself to find out.

Then how can there be so many people with conflicting accounts, beliefs and ideas of what it exactly is that they're talking to? Lots of people saying extremely unlikely things does not make them anymore likely be true. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and for every person on that website who claims to have actually had a spiritual experience, I could point to just as many claims from people who believe, just as strongly, that they were abducted by aliens.

I don't doubt that YOU believe your experiences are real, I just don't believe they are, and if you want to give me a reason to believe otherwise I'm going to need a lot better than just "you have to experience it for yourself". No, I don't. Anything that is true, or at least believable to a rational mind, shouldn't have to rely entirely on subjective personal experience in order to be validated.