Opening the door of Christianity as Anti-Christ!

[wizanda]

Pardon where does Christ Quote he came as a sacrifice?
I find plenty asking not to be sacrificed or how anyone stating it is guilty of the sacrifice and then given that the prophecy is fulfilled in Zechariah 11.....one for 30 pieces of silvers God would make the test, they paid it and killed Christ, sacrifice is not part of it...cutting off of inheritance and grace if looked at in Hebrew is, in Zechariah 11.
The potters field part is how I found it and that is clear as day.

This is also why after many of years of this sort of conversation, placing Paul at the front and making separate posts, this is placed all in one.
That way you can’t exactly go posting their words any more as Gospel, they are already seen as being not trust worthy.
If you want me to prove why and where just ask, I have huge lists on the site for one and still loads of things I haven’t gotten around to writing out yet.

This is not some random event either, I have been consciously working on this whole subject since 4/5 years old, so please don’t be flippant.

 

[*Paul*]

Mt 26v27: And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mt 26v28: For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mk 14v23: And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
Mk 14v24: And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

Lk 22v19: And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Lk 22v20: Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Don't bother respnding to me as i won't be returning to this discussion.

 

[wizanda]

Thank you for the opportunity to post about this, I hadn’t seen that in context so you requiring me to look at it again helps. This verse I had already been looking at, to abolish drinking and how Christ didn’t say about communion and it had been edited to look like it had. yet Christ didn’t tell anyone to drink and far from it as he sits on the right hand as does the foaming cup of Babylon in God’s right hand.

But1161 I say3004 unto you,5213 I will not3364 drink4095 henceforth575, 737 of1537 this5127 fruit1081 of the3588 vine

Check the meaning of this and you will see it doesn’t say “I will not”, yet “I ask you not to do this”, So in the following of Christ drinking was not promoted he even said “blessed are those who give a disciple a cup of water” and “not to get weigh down with worries of this world and to get caught up with drinking”.

Mat 26:27-31
(27) And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
(28) For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(29) But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
(30) And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
(31) Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, “I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad”.


Guess you brought this up against the wrong person

Zec 13:7-9
(7) Awake, O sword , against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
(8) And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
(9) And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.


You see on the verse you have brought up it also brings me to this point in Habakkuk that is clearly same point.

Hab 2:1-12
(1) I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower, and will watch to see what he will say unto me, and what I shall answer when I am reproved.
(2) And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.
(3) For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
(4) Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
(5) Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:
(6) Shall not all these take up a parable against him, and a taunting proverb against him, and say, Woe to him that increaseth that which is not his! how long? and to him that ladeth himself with thick clay!
(7) Shall they not rise up suddenly that shall bite thee, and awake that shall vex thee, and thou shalt be for booties unto them?
(8) Because thou hast spoiled many nations, all the remnant of the people shall spoil thee; because of men's blood, and for the violence of the land, of the city, and of all that dwell therein.
(9) Woe to him that coveteth an evil covetousness to his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil!
(10) Thou hast consulted shame to thy house by cutting off many people, and hast sinned against thy soul.
(11) For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it.
(12) Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and establisheth a city by iniquity!

 

[Bick]

When "Christianity" is about approaching the world in terms of "right" belief and "wrong" belief, or allows the divisions we create in our minds to get in the way of seeing Christ in everyone, then it is Anti-Christian, and metaphorically Pharisaic.

The wise man loves, so he listens. The fool loves his words, so he talks.

Doppelganger, from what you say above, would you condemn Jesus when he says,"I am the way , the truth , and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)? He approached his world as the only "right belief."

 

[xexon]

Anti-Christ is not a person, its a spiritual disease. A plague.

It knows nothing of what religion you follow.

This plague pushes the heart to the back of the bus so that the mind moves forward. The mind is a cold and calculating machine. It makes a great servant, but a terrible master.

This is the state of today's world, and its only the beginning of the damage this disease will do. Billions are going to die before the doctor arrives.



x

 

[wizanda]

would you condemn Jesus when he says,"I am the way , the truth , and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)?

This is my Point he never said that; it is a blatant forgery, as in how can he in the other gospels say: the left and right hand seat is not mine to give; When asked Good Christ, he replies there is none Good yet God.
This list goes on of quite a few things that Christ said in the other gospels that do not stand by such a statement.
Yet when in John there are things like the destroying of the temple, which clearly John implies is still truth, yet in the other gospels it says it is false testimony made up by the high council to discredit Yeshua.
Now in John it said “then the disciples knew he meant the body”, yet how can that be if Mark appears to be john Mark (disciples) and Matthew appears the same tax collector, who have written these things, with figurative descriptions of an eye witness account.
Though they may say the were published later, yet how do we know when they were first written out and then copied later (like Maccabees 3&4 were written in 1977??).

Point being the book of John can not be trusted and you can not imply Yeshua said that as I strongly disagree, as does the Bible and all he stood for.

As in knock and the door shall open, ask of the father and he shall give to you, now this is again where you need to cancel out John, as in this he says Yeshua is the father, again completely contradicting the other gospels.

Yet the most clearest sign of John not being Yeshua’s own wording, is it refers to him self as (I am), which Yeshua reserves for use of God alone in the other gospels and as he stated “do not go after them saying (I am)” claiming they are from him.
It is quite clear if you look at this in Greek it is directly contradictory of that statement and so why John is not accountable as testimony.

If we accept John as testimony that also means Yeshua is then condemned by God for breaking half the Torahs laws, if John is declined then Yeshua stood right according to the other gospels of his teachings.
Basically John would imply Yeshua is a dragon (made him self out to be God), that is clearly referenced in Revelations and why this is the doctrine which is hated.

 

[doppelganger]

Doppelganger, from what you say above, would you condemn Jesus when he says,"I am the way , the truth , and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)? He approached his world as the only "right belief."

You are interpreting it that way because you approach the world that way.


A=B
B=C
Therefore, A=C

Jesus is God.
God is Love.
Therefore Jesus is Love

The logic is valid. Which premise do you wish to maintain is false?

Love is the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to Love, but by Love.

How very true.

 

[Bick]

Quote of Wizanda:
This is not to attack Yeshua, yet to fix the books and replace what was taken, return his true meaning to him.
Please forgive scripture references to begin and I know I could take each point separately, yet when all are as one thing, the Pharisees and teaching of Balaam then this needs to be approached as a court case would, and so that is the brief.
If you defend the Pharisee then you don’t stand for Christ, this is intended as we are in defence of Christ and what the Bible means without Pharisees.

I'm not really sure what points you are presenting. Is it to present a "Bible" that you are interpreting as true? And, if you now have the correct Bible, why not publish it? What exactly is Jeshua's 'true meaning?'

I have read the account of Balaam carefully, and while Balak hired Balaam to curse Israel, that is not what Balaam did, because God didn't let him. Yet, even though Balaam was a soothsayer (Josh.13:22), God used him to bless Israel.

In fact, Simon Peter warns against false prophets following the way of Balaam, in 2 Pet. 2:15.

So, your view that John, Simon (Peter), and Paul teach the way of Balaam makes no sense, to me.

 

[astarath]

Wizanda i too disagree on the point of the pharisee's (Paul, Simon, John) teaching the tenets of balaam. I disagree that your not proselytizing(<is this right?!?) Regardless of whether you hold a religion you still have faith and are attempting to push the constructs of this faith upon others as proof of inaccuracy and error within their own faith to prove a superiority in your own.

As far as the works of Paul go those who know me know I do not consider Paul an apostle of the Lord (bad tree=bad fruit).
As far as the words of Peter go he is much harder to discern for his statements can be vague and are often misinterpreted. (The story of the meat which you have used as proof against peter was actually a sign to him from God to go and preach to not only the Jews but the gentiles as well.)
As far as John's words go, I will need a lot more proof that the most beloved of Yeshua's apostles was in all actuality opposed to him.

As far as Christ's role in the new testament I agree with you to some degree. Christ's teachings were the importance of his life. The corrections he placed on the Law are quite possibly the most important thing in the bible (obviously with exception to the Law itself). I believe the Law as was summed up by the Christ though was accurate

-Love God
-Love your neighbour

His crucifixion is neccessary because it sets the standard for which we are to meet. We need to be willing to love God and each other so much that we are willing to sacrifice ourselves to save one another.

This was his final truth: let's call it his extent of love lesson. Often people asked him questions about how much faith, hope, love are required and he always answered in parables. But they fell on dead ears his works fell on blind eyes. His final work was originally a work of sight that came and went, was translated to the word that now falls on deaf ears.

So I suppose all I need to say really is Christ came to tell us these truths:

Love God
Love one another
How much?
enough to give yourself as a sacrifice of love.

 

[wizanda]

Thank you for giving me something to answer far easier like that.
Balaam point I did think I had already posted:

Mic 6:5-8
(5) O my people, remember now what Balak king of Moab consulted, and what Balaam the son of Beor answered him from ****tim unto Gilgal; that ye may know the righteousness of the LORD.
(6) Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
(7) Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
(8) He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Mat 9:13
(13) But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mat 12:7
(7) But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Hos 6:6
(6) For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Zec 11:3-17
(3) There is a voice of the howling of the shepherds; for their glory is spoiled: a voice of the roaring of young lions; for the pride of Jordan is spoiled.
(4) Thus saith the LORD my God; Feed the flock of the slaughter;
(5) Whose possessors slay them, and hold themselves not guilty: and they that sell them say, Blessed be the LORD; for I am rich: and their own shepherds pity them not.
(6) For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith the LORD: but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbour's hand, and into the hand of his king: and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver them.
(7) And I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty (Grace), and the other I called Bands (inheritance); and I fed the flock.
(8) Three shepherds (Pharisee, Sadducees, levites/Lawyers) also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
(9) Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another. (Fake communion)
(10) And I took my staff, even Beauty (Grace), and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
(11) And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.
(12) And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. (Given to Judas)
(13) And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD. (Potters field in the land of Israel).
(14) Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands (inheritance), that I might break the brotherhood between Judah (Muslim) and Israel (Jewish).
(15) And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd. (Pharisees)
(16) For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land (Paul), which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
(17) Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

 

[wizanda]

Luk 20:9-18
(9) Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.
(10) And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty.
(11) And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty.
(12) And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out.
(13) Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
(14) But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir (Yeshua): come, let us kill him (Pharisee), that the inheritance may be ours.
(15) So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
(16) He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.
(17) And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
(18) Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Mat 23:18
(18) And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

Mat 23:29-31
(29) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
(30) And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
(31) Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Eze 33:12
(12) Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

Hos 8:13
(13) They sacrifice flesh for the sacrifices of mine offerings, and eat it; but the LORD accepteth them not; now will he remember their iniquity, and visit their sins: they shall return to Egypt (man or mammon).

 

[astarath]

Isaiah 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

Matt 10:39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Matt 16:21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"
23Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men." 24Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25For whoever wants to save his life[h] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. 26What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? 27For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Matt20:17Now as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside and said to them, 18"We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!"

Matt26:27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."

Or would you know also place doubt on Isaiah and Matthew? I will agree that we are told to be cautious and were taught not to do as the pharisee's do. But Christ also instructed us to do as they teach, they make lessons they themselves cannot learn the set standards that they themselves could not meet.

The three of them abolished the Law for Christians through their actions but if you look at their lessons the message of the Law is there. We are told we must test for good fruit and be wary the leaven of the pharisees, this is the purpose of Yeshua's teachings, they are the measure by which we are to rule.

 

[wizanda]

All of what you just posted is correct and I don't stand against anyone, God does....all i am doing is as asked....
you see in all of what you just posted if you go over Zechariah 11, which is clearly related to Christ...it doesn't say anything about a sacrifice....it relates how he came as a test to cut off inheritance and grace; as we see this happened to the whole house of Israel soon after&#8230;then when Yeshua&#8217;s own vinedresser parable matches this, it is only Pharisees whom taught otherwise&#8230;..aka teaching as Balaam&#8230;that God would sacrifice his own son.

your point on Isaiah 53 also makes us grief, as it has turned all sheep to their own paths...i can not find one Christian whom believes the same as the next&#8230; which is very confusing for anyone and is putting off countless millions of ever following God&#8230;.. and why??? as they are told to follow Christ...yet if they were his disciple or students, depending how we look at the word...then he told us to have faith in God!
since God is the rock and little parts are the sand; basing our trust in man will always make us fall.

So do you see within the context of all Yeshua is saying, no where is it that he proclaimed him self as a sacrifice, maybe that stems from Simon the stone as he believed this. Yet Yeshua is relating that of the test of the nation and this is why he said such things.
Those who teach as Balaam do not, and for me having lived that, it hurts that anyone can claim to be a friend and then say it is good you died.

 

[love]

Wizanda, you are going to alot of trouble to prove these points. You have already proved them to yourself and that should be sufficeint, since you seem to live in your own little world. You say you are only doing what is asked. Who asked?

 

[love]

oops, Sorry haven't had my coffee yet. But let me ask. Are you a prophet?

 

[astarath]

A false prophet for the head of prophecy was taken with the head of John. As far as who asks that is a matter for a different thread. Isaiah is a direct reference to the Christ, Isaiah being a true prophet of the Lord was speaking the word of God, his claim as to what the purpose of Christ's sacrifice is the direct word of God.

 

[wizanda]

Zan = Corn Cutter thread

Wouldn't class my self as a prophet though, i do dream my future and get vision....know I was sent, get most miracles i ask....I am Zanda that is easiest

 

[astarath]

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Merely because you can envision a possibilty of future and possess a knowledge that God exists does not make you Godly nor does it grant you the ability to communicate the will of God this was the purpose of the Christ not of Zanda

 

[wizanda]

Yeh true; funny when I remember everyone out of the books of life and you try and deny me? I understand without actually look at all the references I have given you, it is very easy not to see...i almost didn't until seeing Revelation chapter 10 and then reading about it 3 years later, in a book someone wrote 2000 odd years before.

 

[astarath]

you claim to have read the book of life? the one that was closed in daniel until the end of days?