Optimistic eternal reincarnation?

[Cosmos-intérieur]

Which religions have an optimistic vision of reincarnation without the idea of moksha or liberation behind?
to finish I would like to know which religion speaks of perpetual reincarnation without idea of moksha definitve behind.
I know that this is the case among others for tenrikyo and other new religions.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The word religion means pretty much the same as yoga does, to retie, reunite. Infinite reincarnations means that souls never get to realize who they really are, and that would pretty much fit the definition of Hell, and the opposite of the purpose of religion.

 

[Cosmos-intérieur]

it depends on your religion

 

[The Hammer]

Which religions have an optimistic vision of reincarnation without the idea of moksha or liberation behind?
to finish I would like to know which religion speaks of perpetual reincarnation without idea of moksha definitve behind.
I know that this is the case among others for tenrikyo and other new religions.

Certain branches of Neo-Paganism consider reincarnation a good thing. Druids often view reincarnation as a positive.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Which religions have an optimistic vision of reincarnation without the idea of moksha or liberation behind?
to finish I would like to know which religion speaks of perpetual reincarnation without idea of moksha definitve behind.

My view has the most optimistic reincarnation without 'moksha'. It guarantees eternal existence through chemical recycling. It also guarantees omni-pesence, since the molecules of the our body after our death will survive in millions of living and non-living things, not even one of them will die / be obliterated / lost.
(Human body has about 2×10^25 molecules. That's a 2 with 25 zeros, 20,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 20 Septillion - Google Search)

 

[Cosmos-intérieur]

My view has the most optimistic reincarnation without 'moksha'. It guarantees eternal existence through chemical recycling. It also guarantees omni-pesence, since the molecules of the our body after death will survive in millions of living and non-living things, not even one of them will die / obliterated / lost.
(Human body has about 2×10^25 molecules. That's a 2 with 25 zeros, 20,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 20 Septillion - Google Search)

Interestingly, it looks a bit like the ancient Greek atomist point of view

 

[Aupmanyav]

Interestingly, it looks a bit like the ancient Greek atomist point of view

It was also the view of Kanāda of the 'Vaisheshikā' philosophy, one of the six orthodox philosophies of Hinduism. On his death bed, Kanāda was asked about what really exists in the universe, he said "Pilu, pilu, pilu' ('Atoms, atoms, atoms).
Vaisheshika - Wikipedia

 

[Twilight Hue]

My view has the most optimistic reincarnation without 'moksha'. It guarantees eternal existence through chemical recycling. It also guarantees omni-pesence, since the molecules of the our body after our death will survive in millions of living and non-living things, not even one of them will die / be obliterated / lost.
(Human body has about 2×10^25 molecules. That's a 2 with 25 zeros, 20,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 20 Septillion - Google Search)

Definitely. Nothing really goes anywhere no matter how destructive an event can get.


That's why I see this as eternal potential rather than any static permanent entity called a soul.

It's why I'm privy to rebirth of form, while in reality it's just a continuous and endless rising and falling phenomenon with no real actual birth or death to speak of.

I oftentimes wonder the incredible journey each atom in my body traverses. If only atoms could talk.....

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Definitely. Nothing really goes anywhere no matter how destructive an event can get.


That's why I see this as eternal potential rather than any static permanent entity called a soul.

It's why I'm privy to rebirth of form, while in reality it's just a continuous and endless rising and falling phenomenon with no real actual birth or death to speak of.

I oftentimes wonder the incredible journey each atom in my body traverses. If only atoms could talk.....

The eternal rise and fall of the manifested forms of the universe, and the movement of the associated atoms thereof is maya, there was never a beginning to the real, and nor is there an end, the eternal timeless now is all there is, always was, and always will be.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The eternal rise and fall of the manifested forms of the universe, and the movement of the associated atoms thereof is maya, there was never a beginning to the real, and nor is there an end, the eternal timeless now is all there is, always was, and always will be.

Eternal! Always! I do not know what 'eternal' is in this sense. I will reserve my judgment on this till we have solved the problem of existence and non-existence. The question is, "Is existence and non-existence are just two phases of 'What exists'?" "Did the universe arise out of 'absolute nothing'?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Eternal! Always! I do not know what 'eternal' is in this sense. I will reserve my judgment on this till we have solved the problem of existence and non-existence. The question is, "Is existence and non-existence are just two phases of 'What exists'?" "Did the universe arise out of 'absolute nothing'?

You are dealing with maya of the mind, the real is forever on the other side of the maya of the mind, ie., it is beyond thought..

 

[Aupmanyav]

You are dealing with maya of the mind, the real is forever on the other side of the maya of the mind, ie., it is beyond thought..

Maya is just as much physical as it is mental. Your finger - under the electron microscope, every atoms of it will have (proportionately) emptiness of a foot ball field with untraceable electrons (points of energy) romping somewhere in the field. It is not really a finger. Difficult to put one's finger on what is real and what is not.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Maya is just as much physical as it is mental. Your finger - under the electron microscope it will have (proportionately) emptiness of a foot ball field with untraceable electrons (points of energy) romping somewhere in the field. Difficult to put one's finger on what is real and what is not.

I am using the concept of maya in this instance to describe mental conceptualization of reality as opposed to the reality itself. Thoughts about the real is not the real, the real is forever on the other side of your thoughts about it!

 

[Aupmanyav]

"Sarvam Khalu Idam Brahma": All things here are Brahman.
"Eko sad, dwiteeyo nasti": What exists is one, there is no second.
"Tat twam asi": That is what you are.
"So Aham": I too am the same.
"Ayam atma Brahman": This self is Brahman.
"Aham Brahmasmi": I am Brahman.
Brahman is the only reality, nothing else is.
These are known as Mahavakyas (great sayings) in Hindu scriptures.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

"Sarvam Khalu Idam Brahma": All things here are Brahman.
"Eko sad, dwiteeyo nasti": What exists is one, there is no second.
"Tat twam asi": That is what you are.
"So Aham": I too am the same.
"Ayam atma Brahman": This self is Brahman.
"Aham Brahmasmi": I am Brahman.
Brahman is the only reality, nothing else is.
These are known as Mahavakyas (great sayings) in Hindu scriptures.

Ok, so if we take this "Brahman is the only reality, nothing else is." as the ultimate reality, and we accept that mental conceptualization of reality is maya in the sense that the thought of reality is not actually the reality, then how can a seeker of reality ever realize reality?.
It would seem as though the seeker would need to still the mind, for the mind to be free from thought.
So what happens if we can still the mind so that there is no thought?

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. then how can a seeker of reality ever realize reality?.
So what happens if we can still the mind so that there is no thought?

Quite simple. Take the help of science.
What did it all started with at the time of Big Bang? Physical energy.
Therefore 'physical energy' is Brahman aka "What exists".
Mind cannot be stilled for more than a moment. It is a nice feeling, but that is all it is.
It is through analysis that one comes to know reality.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Quite simple. Take the help of science.
What did it all started with at the tie of Big Bang? Physical energy.
Therefore 'physical energy' is Brahman aka "What exists".
Mind cannot be stilled for more than a moment. It is a nice feeling, but that is all it is.
It is through analysis that one comes to know reality.

Ok, you provide a mental conceptualization that is meant to represent reality. My understanding is that human thought is merely a process involving the firing of neurons of the brain, Brahman therefore can not be your thought about what Brahman is, Brahman exists beyond the limitations of your conceptualization imho.
Your opinion as to how long the mind can be stilled is noted, I respectfully am of the opinion that is possible for the mind to be stilled for an extended period.

ps. I hope our exchange is not interpreted as a debate?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Take the help of science.

It is not just what my mind says, but what science also agrees to.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

It not just my mind experiencing Brahman when it is free from thought, but what zenzero would also agree with.

 

[ajay0]

My understanding is that human thought is merely a process involving the firing of neurons of the brain, Brahman therefore can not be your thought about what Brahman is, Brahman exists beyond the limitations of your conceptualization imho.

This is very intelligently put and I am impressed by your scholarly understanding of Brahman and Advaita Vedanta.

Prajnanam Brahma. (Aitareya Upanishad 3.1.3) -- Brahman is pure consciousness.

'Consciousness minus conceptualization is the eternal Brahman the absolute; consciousness plus conceptualization is thought. ' -- Yoga Vasistha

Truly your knowlege of advaita is superior to some so-called 'advaitans' with superficial knowledge over here and I hope you continue to have confidence in your own scholarship and knowledge.

Your opinion as to how long the mind can be stilled is noted, I respectfully am of the opinion that is possible for the mind to be stilled for an extended period.

This is true, and the purpose of all spiritual disciplines is for this purpose. Through meditation and self-inquiry the mind can be stilled, resulting in the perception of the Self within. This is the reason why joy is felt during meditation or spiritual exercise as the Self is of the nature of bliss and joy.

All spiritual disciplines are done with a view to still the mind. The perfectly still mind is universal spirit. ~ Swami Ramdas

A mind that is fast is sick. A mind that is slow is sound. A mind that is still is divine. ~ Meher Baba