Optimistic eternal reincarnation?

[Ben Dhyan]

This is very intelligently put and I am impressed by your scholarly understanding of Brahman and Advaita Vedanta.

Truly your knowlege of advaita is superior to some so-called 'advaitans' with superficial knowledge over here and I hope you continue to have confidence in your own scholarship and knowledge.

This is true, and the purpose of all spiritual disciplines is for this purpose. Through meditation and self-inquiry the mind can be stilled, resulting in the perception of the Self within. This is the reason why joy is felt during meditation or spiritual exercise as the Self is of the nature of bliss and joy.

Well thank you for your kind words of encouragement ajay0, and I am pleased that you too share this understanding.

 

[Cosmos-intérieur]

note that all schools of vedanta do not have the same vision of maya as that of vallabah and ramanuja.

 

[Cosmos-intérieur]

the question was mainly focused on religions that have a permanent and positive vision of reincarnation.

the tenrikyo sect has an ideal of a series of life on earth of 115 in a utopian world which would have become paradise on earth.

brahma kumaris and theosophy do not seem to adhere to the vision of a permanent moksha which means that for them being will necessarily return.

Are there any other religions that value the cycle of incarnation?

 

[ajay0]

Well thank you for your kind words of encouragement ajay0, and I am pleased that you too share this understanding.

Advaita is a complex and very hard philosophy to comprehend, and consequently I have come across people who claim themselves to be advaitans with a laughable or very poor understanding of the subject.

On the other hand, I have come across people who clearly understand the subject and state it clearly without expressing themselves as advaitans. So it is a bit of a puzzle for me!

How did you figure out this philosophy properly ! Did you have a guide or mentor in the subject !

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Advaita is a complex and very hard philosophy to comprehend, and consequently I have come across people who claim themselves to be advaitans with a laughable or very poor understanding of the subject.

On the other hand, I have come across people who clearly understand the subject and state it clearly without expressing themselves as advaitans. So it is a bit of a puzzle for me!

How did you figure out this philosophy properly ! Did you have a guide or mentor in the subject !

Could be that your experience is similar! Certainly the journey was difficult at times, but transcending duality is always going to be difficult at some stage for an entity who starts off imagining they are separate from the whole. Yes, there was a special mentor who appeared on the scene at an appropriate point.

 

[Cosmos-intérieur]

this is what seems "problematic" to me (the word may be a bit strong) essentially with kevala advaita, you create a distinction between duality and unity which itself is ultimately artificial, it is very intellectual contrary to what you say .
it is not necessarily less good or bad but it is just essentially dualistic (dissociation of the unity and the duality of the relative and the absolute.)
it is not like Kashmir Shaivism which seems to transcend duality and unity in paramadvaita (non-dichotomy between duality and non-duality)

then if you tell me dvaita does not exist then you create a dichotomy between real and unreal which remains a duality.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

this is what seems "problematic" to me (the word may be a bit strong) essentially with kevala advaita, you create a distinction between duality and unity which itself is ultimately artificial, it is very intellectual contrary to what you say .
it is not necessarily less good or bad but it is just essentially dualistic (dissociation of the unity and the duality of the relative and the absolute.)
it is not like Kashmir Shaivism which seems to transcend duality and unity in paramadvaita (non-dichotomy between duality and non-duality)

then if you tell me dvaita does not exist then you create a dichotomy between real and unreal which remains a duality.

Well it ultimately comes down to practice, has your mind ever been in a state of true quiescence, ie., a mind totally free from thought? In that state, there is no conceptualizing taking place, no thoughts arising at all. But when the practitioner tries to explain this fact, the mind is no longer still, it is conceptualizing, ie. a mind in the state of duality.

There is this humorous piece from the Chinese Chan tradition... "The true teaching about non-duality is that there is no true teaching, nevertheless this teaching that there is no true teaching, is the true teaching!" The point being that the mind naturally must be in a state of duality when trying to explain the non-dualistic mind state to another mind whose mind is in a state of duality.

 

[syo]

Which religions have an optimistic vision of reincarnation without the idea of moksha or liberation behind?

Why??? What's wrong with moksha???

 

[Ben Dhyan]

the question was mainly focused on religions that have a permanent and positive vision of reincarnation.

the tenrikyo sect has an ideal of a series of life on earth of 115 in a utopian world which would have become paradise on earth.

brahma kumaris and theosophy do not seem to adhere to the vision of a permanent moksha which means that for them being will necessarily return.

Are there any other religions that value the cycle of incarnation?

These groups are hardly representative of traditional main stream religion. Tenrikyo apparently did have a Shinto and Buddhist basis but after WWII, these aspects were removed with Government approval.
Theosophy is not a religion, but accept all religions as being true. Anyone can present their religious views, but much of it is not credible. As for the Brahma Kumaris, the doctrine of ever repeating 5,000 years cycles of the same karmic drama is just plain silly.

Having said that, I have known members of all three, I was once a member of the Theosophical Society, I am friends with present practicing members of Tenrikyo and get their local monthly newsletter. I see these sects as potentially helpful in helping aspirants along the path, but people are not equal in terms of their evolutionary spiritual development and so as the saying goes, water finds its own level!

 

[ajay0]

As for the Brahma Kumaris, the doctrine of ever repeating 5,000 years cycles of the same karmic drama is just plain silly.

The universal cycles repeat in a loop as in a moebius strip. I don't consider it silly but something that makes sense and order out of randomness and chaos. Nietzche himself talked about eternal recurrence, and this concept has also been found in ancient egyptian and greek philosophy.

Eternal return - Wikipedia

 

[Cosmos-intérieur]

Why??? What's wrong with moksha???

nothing at all, that's the question of the post.
what differentiates optimistic religions towards reincarnation and pessimistic religions.
optimistic religions (from this point of view) think that the goal is not to escape the cycle of incarnations but on the contrary to incarnate.

for example tenrikyo, the theosophy of blawatsky, brahma kumaris do not believe in a rest or final liberation the soul sooner or later must return to earth.

 

[Cosmos-intérieur]

These groups are hardly representative of traditional main stream religion. Tenrikyo apparently did have a Shinto and Buddhist basis but after WWII, these aspects were removed with Government approval.
Theosophy is not a religion, but accept all religions as being true. Anyone can present their religious views, but much of it is not credible. As for the Brahma Kumaris, the doctrine of ever repeating 5,000 years cycles of the same karmic drama is just plain silly.

if it's a return exactly the same without progressions it's indeed weird

 

[rational experiences]

Sperm ovary by sex forms any human.

Unless youre a man who doesn't want a woman to be with him science cloning life. Who says a clone is a reincarnation by my invention.

The human body dies and does not return to its pre living first sex form.

Instead already living microbiology eats up the deceased body to remain self existing. As stone already existed our bones harden then turn back into the planets pre owned dusts.

As dust was in water. We are mainly water cells.

No self reincarnation at all.

If science reinvents the instant reaction to return before life as invented instant snap freeze before our biology ..... we'll die as snap frozen held bodies. Then heat melt will allow natural cell decay.

All life dead.

If earths heavens still remains. The real eternal body that pre exists space and pre existed a heavens would return a spirit being back.

To begin new life again. Eternal meaning it's owned body never changed had always existed....can however be forced to re release life to begin again.

Only after the pre living biology is annihilated.

Returned life.

Reincarnated life. Returns the same DNA memory that lived before in a human life body memory that had died bodily.

 

[Cosmos-intérieur]

the purpose of this post is not to debate on such conception and their validity (even if it is very interesting) but to talk about the rather rare religions which have an optimistic vision of reincarnation which continues itself without needing to break the cycle .

 

[ajay0]

for example tenrikyo, the theosophy of blawatsky, brahma kumaris do not believe in a rest or final liberation the soul sooner or later must return to earth.

The Brahmakumari philosophy also have the concept of liberation or moksha through total elimination of karma, which results in the soul moving to Paramdham or Soul world where the souls reside nearby God , in a state of peace.

https://www.shivbabas.org/three-worlds

It is only in the next universal cycle that they emerge from the Soul world to take birth in human bodies and go through the four time spans of Golden,Silver, Copper and Iron Ages.

 

[rational experiences]

Sperm ovary by sex forms any human.

Unless youre a man who doesn't want a woman to be with him science cloning life. Who says a clone is a reincarnation by my invention.

The human body dies and does not return to its pre living first sex form.

Instead already living microbiology eats up the deceased body to remain self existing. As stone already existed our bones harden then turn back into the planets pre owned dusts.

As dust was in water. We are mainly water cells.

No self reincarnation at all.

If science reinvents the instant reaction to return before life as invented instant snap freeze before our biology ..... we'll die as snap frozen held bodies. Then heat melt will allow natural cell decay.

All life dead.

If earths heavens still remains. The real eternal body that pre exists space and pre existed a heavens would return a spirit being back.

To begin new life again. Eternal meaning it's owned body never changed had always existed....can however be forced to re release life to begin again.

Only after the pre living biology is annihilated.

Returned life.

Reincarnated life. Returns the same DNA memory that lived before in a human life body memory that had died bodily.

My positive spiritual review the process of a human bodies return as the conscious questioner answerer by terms God. As a spiritualist. Self development as redevelopment by choice a self. My religion is personal.

 

[Cosmos-intérieur]

The Brahmakumari philosophy also have the concept of liberation or moksha through total elimination of karma, which results in the soul moving to Paramdham or Soul world where the souls reside nearby God , in a state of peace.

https://www.shivbabas.org/three-worlds

It is only in the next universal cycle that they emerge from the Soul world to take birth in human bodies and go through the four time spans of Golden,Silver, Copper and Iron Ages.

yes that's right I seem to remember that this is also the case for arya samaj, what changes is the idea of liberation as a definitive means of escaping reincarnation whereas in these two religions the soul will have to sooner or later reincarnate.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. has your mind ever been in a state of true quiescence, ie., a mind totally free from thought?
The point being that the mind naturally must be in a state of duality when trying to explain the non-dualistic mind state to another mind whose mind is in a state of duality.

Why should mind be free of thought? It has evolved to observe, think, act and remember.
In living form, things will always be in duality, multiplicity, even when one talks about animals or trees (male, female) - what constitutes us can very well be in an inanimate form, like what remains after cremation. But human mind can understand non-duality (with analysis and science giving a hand). This understanding is jnana, enlightenment, nirvana, moksha, deliverance or whatever one may like to term it. A mind with no thought and a mind in coma are no different. Mind cannot be without thought for more than a few moments.

BTW, Sankara said, "I do not need Moksha, because I am always free".
".. na dharmo na cha artha na kamo na moksha, .. Shvoham, Shvoham"
(.. I do not have any duty, nor money, nor desires nor moksha .. I am the aauspicious, I am the eternal)
Nirvana shatakam - Hindupedia, the Hindu Encyclopedia

Arumugam Chetiya here.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Why should mind be free of thought? It has evolved to observe, think, act and remember.
In living form, things will always be in duality, multiplicity, even when one talks about animals or trees (male, female) - what constitutes us can very well be in an inanimate form, like what remains after cremation. But human mind can understand non-duality (with analysis and science giving a hand). This understanding is jnana, enlightenment, nirvana, moksha, deliverance or whatever one may like to term it. A mind with no thought and a mind in coma are no different. Mind cannot be without thought for more than a few moments.

BTW, Sankara said, "I do not need Moksha, because I am always free".
".. na dharmo na cha artha na kamo na moksha, .. Shvoham, Shvoham"
(.. I do not have any duty, nor money, nor desires nor moksha .. I am the aauspicious, I am the eternal)
Nirvana shatakam - Hindupedia, the Hindu Encyclopedia

Arumugam Chetiya here.

People are not equal, but what is common to all souls in incarnation is making progress towards the fulfillment of their intrinsic potential to ultimately be one with Brahman. There is no judgement implied, water finds its own level.

 

[Aupmanyav]

In Advaita, if one goes strictly, there is no God, creation, no soul, no birth, no death. Therefore, no heaven, no hell, no rebirth / reincarnation, no end of days, no judgment. It is the lightest-weight distribution, like Alpine Linux.